My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc. ...

I am sorry i didn't keep in mind all details, as i just focused on the blade tip, remembering the discussion had in this thread. Besides i was busy apreciating hundreds of pieces, having to select a couple for acquisition, so i just concentrated in asking the guy what the purpose of the blade tip was, besides some side questions. I remember he told me this was a multi purpose knife, i think Indian (not sure i remember or if he knew for sure), and the purpose of the tip hook was to extract tendons (sinew). I guess he was inferring this from his ( imense) experience but had no solid evidence ... just a feeling.
Otherwise it is a very nice piece, with an engraved silver handle, its pommel in an unusual drop shape. I just didn't buy it because it was not a weapon.
Sorry if this doesn't add much to the riddle of your own piece; was more to through more wood on the fire.
Fernando

[CourseEight]

Thanks a lot, Fernando, for the interest and the information! Surely any and all information is better to have than not!

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This 'mystery knife' has always been in the back of my mind when reading books, the net etc. I was reading 'Medieval finds from excavations in London, Knives and Scabbards' when I came across some information that may be relevant. In large houses/manors etc., there was an important servant called the 'Panter' the person in charge of the Pantry i.e. the food for the household. In times before canning/fridges the logistics of this position was such that it was an extremely responsible post if not the most important in the household. A ceremonial of the Panter was to cut the Lord/Masters bread of which the top piece was given to the Lord/Master hence the expression "the upper crust'. To carry out this service of sectioning the bread the Panter used four knives the Chaffer, the Parer, the Mensal and the Trencher. To my mind this knife looks like 'the Chaffer'. It is not an enormous leap of imagination to expect that an important implement of an important person in later years, when the intended use is no longer applicable, should be used as a 'Badge of Office' rather than a tool. There are, as you know, many examples of items used historically as weapons/tools but now only used in ceremonial. I am of the opinion that this knife lies somewhere in the 18th Cent, is European and is the 'Badge of Office' of an important servant/employee of a 'grand/aristocratic household' but not necessarily limited to the 'Keeper of the Pantry' but possibly someone with a wider responsibility e.g. Head Servant etc. This is purely speculation but as an idea I think it is reasonably valid.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I will add a photo tomorrow of a Medieval drawing from a manuscript at the Bodleian showing these knives.

[CourseEight]

Thanks so much for your continued efforts Norman! Your line of reasoning certainly does seem sensible, and in line with motifs of the handle to be sure. I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of the 'Chaffer'!

Cheers,

--Radleigh

[fearn]

Makes sense, although I'd like to see the pics. Great research.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road.
Thank you so much.

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Radleigh,
Apologies, I'm a wee bit later than I anticipated with further info.
The attached photo is from a manuscript, Douce 374 f17, in the Bodleian Library in Oxford and dates from the 15th Century. The three knifes shown are the Chaffer, Parer and Trencher. The Chaffer was used for large loaves, the Trencher for smoothing edges and the Mensal knife for removing the select 'upper crust' for presentation to the lord. The other photo is of a Panter slicing bread c1250, there is no comment on which particular knife is being used unfortunately. Although none of the knives are exactly like yours the familial similarity is, I think, worth a thought with regard to my conclusions. As you know knives, like everything else, change through time and fashion and I think it is not too big a leap of faith to see the fundamental similarities between your knife and these Medieval utensils. If I had to stick my neck out and state exactly what I think your knife 'may' represent I would say that it is a 'badge of office' dating from the latter years of the 18th Century, is possibly French and is on balance probably Military. The whole look of the piece has that 'romantic', 'mythological' and 'empire' feel that says to me Napoleonic. The blade decoration,to me, shouts military and as with Band Swords, Officers Dirks etc., it is decorative and states that the wearer is of a certain rank/position within a structured organisation but is non-functional. I think it may have something to do with a non-combatant but important position within an army e.g. Supply Officer, Head Cook/Chef, Officer in charge of Provisions etc. Of course all of the aforementioned may be complete ******** but I can't think of anything else that fits the bill. If nothing else I hope you find the info interesting.
My Regards,
Norman.