My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

CourseEight · 20th January 2009, 06:32 PM

Wow, once again sorry for the delay in my response, but so happy to those who have continued to help. Great painting, Gav, and a fascinating knife you've found, Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc.

Another interesting knife with some similarities, clearly Indian, just ended on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290287591758

fernando · 20th January 2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc. ...

I am sorry i didn't keep in mind all details, as i just focused on the blade tip, remembering the discussion had in this thread. Besides i was busy apreciating hundreds of pieces, having to select a couple for acquisition, so i just concentrated in asking the guy what the purpose of the blade tip was, besides some side questions. I remember he told me this was a multi purpose knife, i think Indian (not sure i remember or if he knew for sure), and the purpose of the tip hook was to extract tendons (sinew). I guess he was inferring this from his ( imense) experience but had no solid evidence ... just a feeling.
Otherwise it is a very nice piece, with an engraved silver handle, its pommel in an unusual drop shape. I just didn't buy it because it was not a weapon.
Sorry if this doesn't add much to the riddle of your own piece; was more to through more wood on the fire.
Fernando

CourseEight · 20th January 2009, 11:53 PM

Thanks a lot, Fernando, for the interest and the information! Surely any and all information is better to have than not!

Norman McCormick · 3rd April 2009, 10:19 PM

Hi,
This 'mystery knife' has always been in the back of my mind when reading books, the net etc. I was reading 'Medieval finds from excavations in London, Knives and Scabbards' when I came across some information that may be relevant. In large houses/manors etc., there was an important servant called the 'Panter' the person in charge of the Pantry i.e. the food for the household. In times before canning/fridges the logistics of this position was such that it was an extremely responsible post if not the most important in the household. A ceremonial of the Panter was to cut the Lord/Masters bread of which the top piece was given to the Lord/Master hence the expression "the upper crust'. To carry out this service of sectioning the bread the Panter used four knives the Chaffer, the Parer, the Mensal and the Trencher. To my mind this knife looks like 'the Chaffer'. It is not an enormous leap of imagination to expect that an important implement of an important person in later years, when the intended use is no longer applicable, should be used as a 'Badge of Office' rather than a tool. There are, as you know, many examples of items used historically as weapons/tools but now only used in ceremonial. I am of the opinion that this knife lies somewhere in the 18th Cent, is European and is the 'Badge of Office' of an important servant/employee of a 'grand/aristocratic household' but not necessarily limited to the 'Keeper of the Pantry' but possibly someone with a wider responsibility e.g. Head Servant etc. This is purely speculation but as an idea I think it is reasonably valid.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I will add a photo tomorrow of a Medieval drawing from a manuscript at the Bodleian showing these knives.

CourseEight · 4th April 2009, 12:45 PM

Thanks so much for your continued efforts Norman! Your line of reasoning certainly does seem sensible, and in line with motifs of the handle to be sure. I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of the 'Chaffer'!

Cheers,

--Radleigh

fearn · 4th April 2009, 08:18 PM

Makes sense, although I'd like to see the pics. Great research.

F

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2009, 10:33 PM

Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road.
Thank you so much.

All the best,
Jim

20th January 2009, 06:32 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Wow, once again sorry for the delay in my response, but so happy to those who have continued to help. Great painting, Gav, and a fascinating knife you've found, Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc. Another interesting knife with some similarities, clearly Indian, just ended on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290287591758 Attached Images

20th January 2009, 11:53 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks a lot, Fernando, for the interest and the information! Surely any and all information is better to have than not!

3rd April 2009, 10:19 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This 'mystery knife' has always been in the back of my mind when reading books, the net etc. I was reading 'Medieval finds from excavations in London, Knives and Scabbards' when I came across some information that may be relevant. In large houses/manors etc., there was an important servant called the 'Panter' the person in charge of the Pantry i.e. the food for the household. In times before canning/fridges the logistics of this position was such that it was an extremely responsible post if not the most important in the household. A ceremonial of the Panter was to cut the Lord/Masters bread of which the top piece was given to the Lord/Master hence the expression "the upper crust'. To carry out this service of sectioning the bread the Panter used four knives the Chaffer, the Parer, the Mensal and the Trencher. To my mind this knife looks like 'the Chaffer'. It is not an enormous leap of imagination to expect that an important implement of an important person in later years, when the intended use is no longer applicable, should be used as a 'Badge of Office' rather than a tool. There are, as you know, many examples of items used historically as weapons/tools but now only used in ceremonial. I am of the opinion that this knife lies somewhere in the 18th Cent, is European and is the 'Badge of Office' of an important servant/employee of a 'grand/aristocratic household' but not necessarily limited to the 'Keeper of the Pantry' but possibly someone with a wider responsibility e.g. Head Servant etc. This is purely speculation but as an idea I think it is reasonably valid. Regards, Norman. P.S. I will add a photo tomorrow of a Medieval drawing from a manuscript at the Bodleian showing these knives.

4th April 2009, 12:45 PM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much for your continued efforts Norman! Your line of reasoning certainly does seem sensible, and in line with motifs of the handle to be sure. I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of the 'Chaffer'! Cheers, --Radleigh

4th April 2009, 08:18 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Makes sense, although I'd like to see the pics. Great research. F

4th April 2009, 10:33 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road. Thank you so much. All the best, Jim