Non European forces proving themselves Vs European military might

[Gonzalo G]

And it is an interesting subject, indeed, Atlantia. You are not offending, I only wanted to be a little knotty with your asessment, as a friend. It seems that the destiny of societies is to conquer all the societies and terrritories which don´t belong to the same social grouping and territory. This open the possibility of creating great empires and cultures, and to unite progessively the world in a single humanity. Not bad if the local cultures and societies keep a space to survive with dignity meanwhile the adapt and developo trasitional links with a new order in a bigger and more rich context.

You all have bringed one important point: conquest and domination has been as a political enterprise, as a military one. Clausewitz said that the war was "the continuation of politics by other means". In other words, war is just another specific way to make politics. In the same line, the fights for the liberation of the subjugated colonies, has been also a political fight, and when they won, it has been more a political triumph than a military one.

Conquest is usually a very complex process, in which many times the characteristics of the conqueror´s weapons are not the only decisive element to explain the victory of the conqueror, but only when very unequal war technologies are used to fight, and the victims had not enough time to absorb the new weapons AND technologies of the conquerors. I belive this is the case with stone age peoples confronted by fireweapons. I don´t recall many battles in which the european conquerors were defeated, but there most be some few. Nepal also offered a good resistance to the english (in fact, they were never really conquered by the english), and I uderstand they defeated them in battle. I believe many of the weapons from the conquered peoples were a good ones, and many of their warriors fough valliantly. And those weapons are the ones which precisely bring us here in the sharing of this passion.
My regards

Gonzalo

[celtan]

Stone-age peoples vs modern firearms?

How about the jungle tribes in Borneo during WWII? I understand that Thompson and Nambu-toting companies virtually disappeared within the green, victims of the natives. I seem to recall one case in which Japanese and American soldiers actually assisted each other, in order to survive...

Also, if I recall correctly, an English Major demonstrated in late 18th C that bows and arrows were better weapons than the period flintlocks.

Once the novelty of black powder wore off, Spanish Conquistadores in America learned that their best weapon was not the cumbersome and unwieldy arcabuces and cannons, but rather their Toledo blades, horses and war dogs.


But even more important than that was Politics. The development of alliances with the different American nations, against the hated Aztecs and Incas...


On a side note:

There was a time when being fair and blonde was usually the characteristic of a slave. In fact, when Romans came to Spain, they often carried away the Celtic peoples from Galicia and Asturias as servants. Greeks, Persians and Turks did similarly within their respective spheres of influence.

Here is anothere example of the importance of Politics: The Romans were unable to militarily defeat the Celtic warrior tribes in the NW corner of the peninsula, so instead they bought the services of some of those tribes as mercenaries, using them to fight the others and as auxiliaries.

Some of these Celt mercenaries were actually sent to Britain, where they often challenged the local Celts in traditional single combat, to the amazement of the Romans.

Other interesting confrontations occurred between the Spanish and the 1. Japanese in Nagasaki, 2. a Thai rebel faction in Cambodia, 3. the Moros in Filipinas.


Manuel

[Gonzalo G]

That is correct, Manolo, but the conquest of the New Spain was not only circunscribed to Tenochtitlan and the meshica (the wrongly so-called "aztecs", by everbody including the actual mexicans), but ir was a long process which took much more time and battles, in the same mesure the spaniards and their indian allies (mainly tlaxcalan), advanced in all direction to colonize. The north was never completely conquered, as the coahuiteca, apache, kiowa, comanche, yaqui y otras yerbas were never subjugated by them. And the fireweapons were more useful in this process. But the spanish colonization was characterized always by the cross-breed of blood and culture with the indians since the beginning, and that was another political measure which gave them many adepts among the native population, and a very solid basis of military and political power.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by celtan

Stone-age peoples vs modern firearms?

How about the jungle tribes in Borneo during WWII? I understand that Thompson and Nambu-toting companies virtually disappeared within the green, victims of the natives. I seem to recall one case in which Japanese and American soldiers actually assisted each other, in order to survive...

Also, if I recall correctly, an English Major demonstrated in late 18th C that bows and arrows were better weapons than the period flintlocks.

Once the novelty of black powder wore off, Spanish Conquistadores in America learned that their best weapon was not the cumbersome and unwieldy arcabuces and cannons, but rather their Toledo blades, horses and war dogs.


But even more important than that was Politics. The development of alliances with the different American nations, against the hated Aztecs and Incas...


On a side note:

There was a time when being fair and blonde was usually the characteristic of a slave. In fact, when Romans came to Spain, they often carried away the Celtic peoples from Galicia and Asturias as servants. Greeks, Persians and Turks did similarly within their respective spheres of influence.

Here is anothere example of the importance of Politics: The Romans were unable to militarily defeat the Celtic warrior tribes in the NW corner of the peninsula, so instead they bought the services of some of those tribes as mercenaries, using them to fight the others and as auxiliaries.

Some of these Celt mercenaries were actually sent to Britain, where they often challenged the local Celts in traditional single combat, to the amazement of the Romans.

Other interesting confrontations occurred between the Spanish and the 1. Japanese in Nagasaki, 2. a Thai rebel faction in Cambodia, 3. the Moros in Filipinas.


Manuel

I often wondered how Spanish and Portugese steel fared against Samurai Katanas?

I remember an old chap I once knew who was in the military out in the far east in Borneo, Malaya, Burma and a few other places back in the 40s/50s telling a funny story of how they used to have to constantly patrol the railway lines because the local tirbesmen had found that they could make great edges weapons out of the large 'pins' holding the tracks down. Cant remember where it was though! lol

[KuKulzA28]

Can't remember where it was? It was everywhere!
Chinese tore up rail-roads to make Da-dao, africans to make machetes, etc. Spring steel is and was used by a LOT of people all over the world. Recycling is key!

I think a perfect defensive counter to foreign invasion is guerrilla warfare. That is one military doctrine that had amazing results against invaders with superior technology. At the very least you give 'em hell before they can take your land and your people. At most you bleed them dry and retake what was yours. It's almost a modernized form of tribal warfare. Small bands of soldiers infiltrating enemy territory to inflict casualties and/or take prisoners, and stealing back into the wilderness. I can think of plenty of parallels in the traditional style of warfare of many native americans, africans, and southeast asian peoples. While many Indian armies, the Zulus, and the Orientals often met the enemy in the field of battle, that is where the out-dated military doctrine and technology showed itself...

some examples of locals adopting the counter tactic (guerilla) would be...

Whenever the Mayans charged the Spaniards with their nobles and richly attired warriors... they almost always got defeated, despite a valiant battle. They knew that they couldn't afford to make the same mistakes as their neighbors and they sought to exterminate the invader... and yet, they failed. Of course, they were charging cavalry, war dogs, swordsmen, pikemen, firearms, and Mexican auxiliaries. But why did it take the Spaniards so long to conquer the Maya DESPITE modern military tech. and newer military management? Well, the Mayans were divided into many different tribes, chiefdoms, and kingdoms. Take out one, you still have a bunch to conquer. The Mayans traditionally fought a hit-and-run forest warfare, resorting to field combat only for the decisive battles. They knew their jungles and how to hunt their prey with ambushes and traps... and there were times when they came damn close to driving out the Spanish. Even today the area is unstable.

The Chinese in WW2 were under-equipped, not as well trained, and led by a less unified political entity. Yet, by controlling the countryside, maximizing firepower when able to, and using Da-dao troops to ambush Japanese supply lines at night, the Nationalists were able to wage a war against communists and Japanese, and pretty much beat the Japanese. The KMT gov't had to unite warlords and petty dictators, quell rebellions, suppress communists, and rally a nation. They also had to gain international support and produce weapons. They almost pulled it off. Now don't get me wrong, I greatly dislike the KMT and the way they massacred my ancestors, but then again I can say the same about the Communists - no one's good in war or peace. Point is, they adopted western military technology, and re-used old traditional weaponry for when it was best - in an "unconventional" hit-and-run ambush style of warfare.

We can get into Ho Chih Min and Vietnam, Philippines under Aguinaldo, the Chichamauga Cherokees, Manco Inca's resistance against the Spanish, Afghans against the USSR, the Germanic warriors at Teutoburgwald, etc.etc. You guys get the point.

but despite all the credit I am giving to these native people... we need to recognize that the Europeans usually prevailed, or was able to recruit locals to fight locals and find a favorable political situation. The Mayans are a marginalized large minority in a land ruled by the descendants of the Spaniards. The Chinese are now under a suffocatingly powerful Communist regime, and suffered the death of millions from the fall of the Ming, through the Taiping and Boxer rebellions and Opium Wars, and wars with modern powers... The Vietnamese have had a history of staunch defiance, and they succeeded, but at a terrible cost. The Philippines (and Moros) eventually came to accept and even prosper under American rule, though divisions and tensions are very strong even today. The Cherokees were eventually displaced, and Manco Inca was eventually defeated. The Afghani militants have been ;argely crushed in recent times or fled to Pakistan. The Germans did eventually conquer Rome, but it was not only due to arms - Rome was a declining empire. So yes, in recent times, the 'Western World' or its military capabilities kicked ass... and yes there was valiant resistance on the part of the conquerees, but could you expect any less?

[celtan]

Guerrilla is an uncivilized form of warfare, which removes any protection from the civilians the guerrilla hides behind. It justifies actions as we currently see in Gaza, and the actions taken by US Soldiers in the hamlets of Nam' as well as as in the German Towns during WWII. It also justifies the actions taken by German soldiers in WWII after partisan activity.

Things to ponder...

[Jim McDougall]

Fantastic topic Gene! and its great to see such an interesting discussion unfolding, especially without the sometimes empassioned altercations that can sometimes develop with such volatile topics.
I'm proud to be in the company of such gentlemanly discourse, and it is great to see history brought into perspective with internationally based views.
Outstanding talk guys!! Thank you!

All the best,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by celtan

Guerrilla is an uncivilized form of warfare, which removes any protection from the civilians the guerrilla hides behind. It justifies actions as we currently see in Gaza, and the actions taken by US Soldiers in the hamlets of Nam' as well as as in the German Towns during WWII. It also justifies the actions taken by German soldiers in WWII after partisan activity.

Things to ponder...

Guerrilla warfare IS uncivilized. But the use of superior firepower to blow up miles of land and bombard cities is pretty uncivilized... people use those paths, work those fields, inhabit those cities. The civilians use the land and infrastructure. Then the soldiers roll in, from the time of conquistadores to the modern day with state of the art weaponry and guns. Against such firepower and great odds it can't blame the guerrillas for using the countryside and the population to hide and time their retaliation. Ideally the population also supports the guerrillas. However often when the guerillas lose the support of or never had the full support of the people, they resort to violence and terrorism to coerce the locals and resupply. It's a desperate and draining form of warfare. Spiteful to say the least. But for the guerrilla fighter armed with a low quality gun or a machete, indoctrinated in some political or nationalistic ideal, and facing better armed foreigners... he does what he needs to do. Not that it's civilized, but war isn't to begin with - doesn't mean we should make it worse than it has to be I guess.

I think we should also distinguish between guerrilla warfare and hit-and-run warfare... if an Amazonian tribe is ambushing some deforesting Brazilians, that's a hit-and-run... but rebels in Guatemala, terrorizing creoles and Mayans alike, that's guerrilla warfare... it can be hard to draw the line sometimes

[celtan]

The problem is that he "does what he needs to do", and then hides in the population, so the soldiers end up attacking the population.

In France, the Wehrmacht behaved very well, then the partisans began knifing the gemans in the back. Their officers reminded the town mayors that they had surrendered, and to hand over the culprits, which they did not. Thank God the Germans only lost their composture in a couple occasions, Oradour being one of them. Similar situations happened in Czechoslovakia, Russia and Pomerania

When Americans in Germany received fire from a surrendered village, even if it was from a lone Hitlerjugen, they simply rolled back out of the town, and erased same with artillery, wiping out children, old ladies, cats, dogs etc...

In Nam', the farmers were forced by the local VC to shoot at American positions at night, and eventually the Americans would respond by cleaning the area with 105s...

I would probably do the same if I were in Irak, and my soldiers were attacked by a civilian mob, or one guided by partisans hidden within their midst.

No, Guerrilas are bad business for those sides who use them...

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Guerrilla warfare IS uncivilized. But the use of superior firepower to blow up miles of land and bombard cities is pretty uncivilized... people use those paths, work those fields, inhabit those cities. The civilians use the land and infrastructure. Then the soldiers roll in, from the time of conquistadores to the modern day with state of the art weaponry and guns. Against such firepower and great odds it can't blame the guerrillas for using the countryside and the population to hide and time their retaliation. Ideally the population also supports the guerrillas. However often when the guerillas lose the support of or never had the full support of the people, they resort to violence and terrorism to coerce the locals and resupply. It's a desperate and draining form of warfare. Spiteful to say the least. But for the guerrilla fighter armed with a low quality gun or a machete, indoctrinated in some political or nationalistic ideal, and facing better armed foreigners... he does what he needs to do. Not that it's civilized, but war isn't to begin with - doesn't mean we should make it worse than it has to be I guess.

I think we should also distinguish between guerrilla warfare and hit-and-run warfare... if an Amazonian tribe is ambushing some deforesting Brazilians, that's a hit-and-run... but rebels in Guatemala, terrorizing creoles and Mayans alike, that's guerrilla warfare... it can be hard to draw the line sometimes

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by celtan

Guerrilla is an uncivilized form of warfare, which removes any protection from the civilians the guerrilla hides behind. It justifies actions as we currently see in Gaza, and the actions taken by US Soldiers in the hamlets of Nam' as well as as in the German Towns during WWII. It also justifies the actions taken by German soldiers in WWII after partisan activity.

Things to ponder...

Manolo, you have a curios idea of warfare. There is not civilized warfare, and the population is massacred anyway on bombardments and cross fire, starvation and plagues. Dresde and all it´s civil population were completely destroyed in an aereal carpet bomardment by the allies because of a vengance for another bad action made by the germans. London was unmerciful bombarded, and it was not a military target, nor they were making guerrillas agains them. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civil cites leveled to the ground and their inhabitants evaporated, blasted or died form cancer years after the war was finished. Better to die fighting. Guerrillas have many uses, and they have been used anywhere they have been useful. Wars are to be won, and civilians must take sides also. In case of foreign invassion, every person in the country is a soldier, and there is no neutrality. Vietnamites won the war, and so other countries or parties, throught the use of the guerrilla, as initial, or and ending mean subordinated to the political war. War cannot be made in terms of the invaders or attackers. Wars and lost of inocent lives could be avoided easily not invading weak countries in an unequal wars, just looking for profits, or because the political needs of powerful nations or economic elites. That would diminish guerrillas warfare and terrorism very drastically. Wars could also be avoided if the powerful nations did not use to fight over the imperial control of the world. That´s what is not civilized. There is no honor or civilization in making those wars. Better not making them.

[Gonzalo G]

KuKulzA28, it must be also said that the mayans from the period of the conquest were not the mayas from the great civilization, which was already destroyed and disappeared, and their cities lost. The mayan from the time of the conquest, were only peasants, fishermans and little merchants living scatered in small towns. The priests, warriors, astronomers, artists of the maya civilization existed no more. One maya group gave better fight to the spaniards. Their chief was a spaniard arrived from a shipwreck years before the disembarkment of spanish soldiers in the Yucatán Peninsula, which was enslaved by the maya, and latter liberated by it´s merits, married with the daughter of a chief and integrated in the mayan society. He was the man which initiated the cross-breeding among spaniards and indians. His name was Gonzalo Guerrero.

By the way, the apocaliptic and racist movie "Apocalypto" has no the slightiest historical trace of true. It is offensive and false, as false as "Bravehearth".

I think "hit and run" is a guerrilla tactic. Guerrilla in Colombia, Guatemala, Irak, Afghansitan or El Salvador are all guerrilla. The difference is their political orientation, the treatment given to the civil population and the use or absence of terrorist methods over this population to intimidate or to level the political pressure over the governments. Pure terrorism, as a sistematic "combat" method, is another thing, compltely different. Anarchists are given to this kind of tactics, so naughty and useless, and very painful for the innocents. But there is also government terrorism, applied by the national armies in their sistematic killig of some sectors of the population, because of diverse "reasons" (ideologic, ethnic, political and so on). In Guatemala, military and civil dictadors used the army to exterminate maya indians and eliminate ferociously and with extreme brutality the opposition, reaching numbers to 30,000 killings. Same can be said of many dictators in America or Europe in the 20th Century...but, in a second thought, they are not just terrorists: they are genocides.

[celtan]

Gonzalo,

Man is a glorified animal. In an ideal world, wars wouldn't happen. Ours is not one.

History repeatedly shows that when Man becomes too civilized, those who are less will take up his word, and give him a too-close shave.

Wars and man go hand-in-hand. It is to our own benefit that the victor should always be the most advanced civilization, or the least savage one, take your pick. Pol Pot and the Serbian conflics come to mind.

Can you imagine a world with Irak, Iran, China or Russia holding the trump-cards? I realize we are not perfect, but side-by-side , we downright look like Sisters-Of-Mercy by comparison.

International Conventions try to make wars, not good, but less bad...
Guerrillas ignore these kinds of arrangements. Just see what happened in Spain after the French invasion. Most of the guerrillas were in for their own profit, criminals with a "patent de corsair" against both French and "afrancesados", the latter being usually people of means.

Professional soldiers don't enjoy killing civilians, nor make them targets...usually. Civilian warriors, OTOH, are characterized for being extremely cruel, torturing, robbing and killing prisoners. Look at Uganda, Afghanistan, Spain, Somalia, Serbia-Bosnia, Irak, the French "Resistance", the Yugoslavian partisans, etc...

Dresden was an unforgivable crime-of-war, the city was already declared open and there were no German troops within. The attacks on London's Docks were not attacks against either population or city, albeit a damaged german fighter-bomber did release its bomb load over London unwittingly. This happened while being attacked, trying to gain manouvrability to shake off its pursuers, and its pilot was courtmartialed.

The British knew this, but nonetheless went on to begin the raids, the Germans responded in kind. This was actually good for the RAF, since it relieved german bombing pressure on their downright-beaten fighter aerodromes.

All in all, the amount of bombs dropped against British civilian targets by the Germans was the tiniest fraction of that dropped by of British and Americans. Studies done after the war proved that these actions actually helped the Nazis better control the German population, by putting them in a defensive mind mode.

To boot, industrially-wise, the german factories output at the end of the war was higher than it had ever been, proving strategic bombing didn't achieve what it was meant to do (that is, beyond massacring the city dwellers). I recall a survivor telling me how allied fighters (Jabos) would specifically target the civilian food lines, diving with the engine off to catch the people unaware.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki (The most pro-western city in Japan) were nuked, not only to prevent further allied invasion forces casualties, but also to scare off the soviets, which were conventionally-wise far more powerful than the combined allied forces at the end of WWII. The allies were aware of Russian plans to invade all Europe, and that their Tank divisions were already in place. So, they made the Russians believe they had more than two nukes, by using one after the other in rapid sucession. Stalin fell for it, and the invasion was postponed.

Myself, I believe that the US won the Vietnam War, then left South Vietnam fall afterwards simply because SV had become economically-unfeasible and politically untenable. The main reason it fell was simply because Nixon stopped the economic aid required to maintain its military forces. The war had left SV rotten to the core, without principles or common identity, unlike South Korea. SV Military was more like a group of independent Daimyos than anything else, often doing business with their own NV enemies...

Wars never end or accomplish what they are supossed to do, but as instruments of change, they are the fastest. And remember, they have always been an extension of economics. If its worthwhile, a suitable reason will always be found.

Nuff'sed


M

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

And it is an interesting subject, indeed, Atlantia. You are not offending, I only wanted to be a little knotty with your asessment, as a friend. It seems that the destiny of societies is to conquer all the societies and terrritories which don´t belong to the same social grouping and territory. This open the possibility of creating great empires and cultures, and to unite progessively the world in a single humanity. Not bad if the local cultures and societies keep a space to survive with dignity meanwhile the adapt and developo trasitional links with a new order in a bigger and more rich context.

You all have bringed one important point: conquest and domination has been as a political enterprise, as a military one. Clausewitz said that the war was "the continuation of politics by other means". In other words, war is just another specific way to make politics. In the same line, the fights for the liberation of the subjugated colonies, has been also a political fight, and when they won, it has been more a political triumph than a military one.

Conquest is usually a very complex process, in which many times the characteristics of the conqueror´s weapons are not the only decisive element to explain the victory of the conqueror, but only when very unequal war technologies are used to fight, and the victims had not enough time to absorb the new weapons AND technologies of the conquerors. I belive this is the case with stone age peoples confronted by fireweapons. I don´t recall many battles in which the european conquerors were defeated, but there most be some few. Nepal also offered a good resistance to the english (in fact, they were never really conquered by the english), and I uderstand they defeated them in battle. I believe many of the weapons from the conquered peoples were a good ones, and many of their warriors fough valliantly. And those weapons are the ones which precisely bring us here in the sharing of this passion.
My regards

Gonzalo

Thank you my friend, I would hate to have offended you.

The British in Nepal is a great example. I can't think of any specific engagements but certainly The Brits were hugely impressed with the bravery and quality of the Neapalese fighters.
I remember reading of one officers experience of the Khukri in battle. He noted how many of the fallen after a battle had been beheaded. Apparently the technique was an upwards stab into the guts causing the victim to double over, then pull it out and a single chop! eeek!!

The Ghurkas of the British army are a source of pride for the British people.
Of course for every genuine tale of Ghurka bravery, their legendary status means there are many more 'ltale tales' about them.
That they would collect earlobes from dead opponents (although I have heard that did go on a bit, and noses, against the Japanese in WW2), that during WW2 when on night manouvers they would tell British from German by creeping up and checking how boots were laced in the dark, that the Khukri would have to draw blood if drawn from its scabbard.

Apparently they did use a lot of 'terror tactics' against both the German and Japanese forces in WW2.
I've never read any accounts by German or Japanese soldiers of how they viewed the Ghurkas. The Japanese certainly had plenty of dealings with them on Burma.

Anyway, back to subject!

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thank you my friend, I would hate to have offended you.

On the contrary, Atlantia, I would hate to be wearisome. I apologize, because sometimes it seems that I writte in angry, but it is not so, even on the middle of a heavy discussion. I should use smiles to express better my feelings, as internet does not permit to see our mutual face expressions.
My regards