Introduction with a question

kai · 15th January 2009, 08:34 AM

Hello Detlef,

I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory?

An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized.

There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though.

I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 15th January 2009, 07:18 PM

Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar.

Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory.
I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

kai · 16th January 2009, 12:25 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis

The actual sample can be a tiny bit. However, there are other factors involved like (surface) contamination and degradation (by age and possibly exposure to chemicals).

Quote:

I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka.

Yes, the inside of hilts and scabbards is a very good place to take samples without compromising the looks and function of a piece..

Quote:

But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

I'm looking into this; there are also some other analyses which could yield additional, valuable information like age and I'd like to maximize the amount of info gained from a single sampling process. Of course, price is also a factor to consider...

I hope to get this project started later this year; the first trials will be done with lesser pieces from my collection. However, it would be nice to know who considers making pieces available for planning purposes. Anyone? Please contact me via email preferably.

Regards,
Kai

kulbuntet · 16th January 2009, 10:59 PM

Hi Sajen,

welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert.

regards Michel

David · 17th January 2009, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi Sajen,

welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert.

regards Michel

Michel, it is not the hilt that is in question. I believe that is ivory too. It is the sheath that is made of some sort of bone, with ivory at the tip as a buntut.

Marcokeris · 17th January 2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Michel, it is not the hilt that is in question. I believe that is ivory too. It is the sheath that is made of some sort of bone, with ivory at the tip as a buntut.

IMO, deer horn.

Henk · 17th January 2009, 02:31 PM

Scabbard is whalebone. Ukiran and buntut are ivory.

Sajen · 17th January 2009, 02:32 PM

Hello Michel, yes the hilt is from elephant-ivory for sure. Also the buntut is from this material.

Hello Marcokeris, I be in doubt that the warangka is from deer horn. It's 11,5 cm long and where the gandar go inside 5,5 cm high. I've never seen a large deer horn like this especial when you consider the some material have to be carved away.

Regards,
Detlef

15th January 2009, 08:34 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Detlef, I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory? An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized. There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though. I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study? Regards, Kai

15th January 2009, 07:18 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar. Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory. I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

16th January 2009, 10:59 PM	#4
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi Sajen, welcome to forum. As i can see from your pics.. i think it may be ivory. can you post biger pic of only the hilt? i see stucture that may resemble elefant ivory structure.. crosed lines.. i doubt it is whale bone or other bone.. but im no expert. regards Michel

17th January 2009, 02:31 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Scabbard is whalebone. Ukiran and buntut are ivory.

17th January 2009, 02:32 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Michel, yes the hilt is from elephant-ivory for sure. Also the buntut is from this material. Hello Marcokeris, I be in doubt that the warangka is from deer horn. It's 11,5 cm long and where the gandar go inside 5,5 cm high. I've never seen a large deer horn like this especial when you consider the some material have to be carved away. Regards, Detlef