Introduction with a question

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 07:20 PM

Here a closeup from the tip of the sheat, maybe it help to identify the material.

Marcokeris · 14th January 2009, 09:03 PM

I'm not so shure the nice sarong comes from whale bone. From bone shure! But from whale...

The very nice hit from pics seems to me ivory.
I put here two hits (from whale bone or from elephant bone i don't know...

....maybe some expert could help me to know better.

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 09:21 PM

Hello Marcokeris, yes the hilt is from elephant ivory.
For me it's also very difficult to differentiate between bone materials.

Alam Shah · 15th January 2009, 05:42 AM

Hi Sajen,

That's a nice minangkabau keris you have there. The blade is Minangkabau, Luk 3, similar to mine (( link )). Minangkabau fretworks (greneng) is smaller and delicate looking than most.

The fittings, as you've mentioned are Minang, as well.

kai · 15th January 2009, 08:34 AM

Hello Detlef,

I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory?

An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized.

There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though.

I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 15th January 2009, 07:18 PM

Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar.

Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory.
I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

kai · 16th January 2009, 12:25 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis

The actual sample can be a tiny bit. However, there are other factors involved like (surface) contamination and degradation (by age and possibly exposure to chemicals).

Quote:

I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka.

Yes, the inside of hilts and scabbards is a very good place to take samples without compromising the looks and function of a piece..

Quote:

But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.

I'm looking into this; there are also some other analyses which could yield additional, valuable information like age and I'd like to maximize the amount of info gained from a single sampling process. Of course, price is also a factor to consider...

I hope to get this project started later this year; the first trials will be done with lesser pieces from my collection. However, it would be nice to know who considers making pieces available for planning purposes. Anyone? Please contact me via email preferably.

Regards,
Kai

14th January 2009, 07:20 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Here a closeup from the tip of the sheat, maybe it help to identify the material. Attached Images

14th January 2009, 09:03 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I'm not so shure the nice sarong comes from whale bone. From bone shure! But from whale... The very nice hit from pics seems to me ivory. I put here two hits (from whale bone or from elephant bone i don't know... ....maybe some expert could help me to know better. Attached Images

15th January 2009, 05:42 AM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Minangkabau Luk 3 keris Hi Sajen, That's a nice minangkabau keris you have there. The blade is Minangkabau, Luk 3, similar to mine (( link )). Minangkabau fretworks (greneng) is smaller and delicate looking than most. The fittings, as you've mentioned are Minang, as well.

14th January 2009, 09:21 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Marcokeris, yes the hilt is from elephant ivory. For me it's also very difficult to differentiate between bone materials.

15th January 2009, 08:34 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Detlef, I'd guess that the tip of the sheath also is ivory? An experienced seller stated deer antler for a similar Minang Kabau scabbard (and hilt). I've seen references to bones of whales and (Asian) elephant being used, too (BTW, both subject to CITES as are some deers). Of course, old water buffaloes (as default bone source in the region) aren't small animals either. Moreover, bone pieces can have quite different denseness depending on which bones and, especially, which part of it is being utilized. There seems to be a lot of guesswork when it comes to identifying the source of materials being used for ethnographic pieces; e. g. many horn hilts referred to as rhino seem to be actually buffalo. I'm not sure wether there are forensic reference collections which would allow identifying the origin by non-destructively examining the structure of the materials encountered with antique pieces. Some, like rhino horn and elephant ivory, are more likely to be identified positively than bone though. I think it would be great if we could try to verify the source of a wide array of materials traditionally being utilized: Modern approaches like DNA sequencing will also have the added benefit to possibly narrow down the origin to a local population rather than to a species or genus only and, thus, being much more informative on the history of an ethnographic piece. While taking the necessary (small) sample damages a piece to some extend, this can often been done where it's not readily visible. Anyone interested to join the fun by making pieces from his/her collection available for study? Regards, Kai

15th January 2009, 07:18 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Alam, thank you for your reply, I've seen your keris in a other thread before. The blade looks indeed very similar. Hello Kai, yes the pommel from the sheat is from ivory. I don't know how much material it will need to identify it by DNA analysis but I think it's possible to take out some substance from the inside of the warangka. But I don't know where it's feasible to get a analysis and for which amount.