Boxer/Republican era dadao

stekemest · 6th January 2009, 12:10 AM

I totally agree with ariel. In my opinion, an old weapon deserves to look like an old weapon - polishing the blade is fine, but the original handle was not so damaged that it had to be removed completely. Now you have a historical weapon that looks like a modern souvenir...

Sorry for being impolite, it's just my opinion.

Peter

Atlantia · 6th January 2009, 12:36 AM

I do agree the colour does look very new, but its easy enough to change if needed, replace completely or tone down. I would personally have gone for a dark colour, but it's personal preference.

P.S.
My poor Dao is still awaiting restoration and the handle is bound with thick string painted black!

Lew · 6th January 2009, 01:51 AM

Lovely blade but the wrap must go. It just doesn't blend

you should see if someone hear can do a traditional Chinese style wrap. You should contact Scott he may be able to help.

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/

Lew

Yu-Ming Chang · 6th January 2009, 03:30 AM

Thanks for the honest and constructive comments from everyone. First, I have to take responsibility for the choice of the red cord; William had wrapped it with a beige cord. While the original old cord is certainly beige now, I thought I saw areas of "pink" which suggested that the original color was more reddish. As I stated, I had at least one other example of a similar dadao (which I gave to my sifu so I can take some pictures of it soon) which has it's original red cord wrap (faded with time of course). The wrap had interwoven red cloth bands on each side of the handle. Based on that and others, it would suggest that the color red is not at all unhistoric.

However, I can certainly see everyone's point, the color and newness of the wrap is jarring now that people are noting it. Even if I replace the wrap, I would probably want to attempt to "age" it a bit. Any suggestions or techniques that have worked well for you?

Lew, thanks for the suggestion to talk to Scott. I actually have used someone, via Philip Tom, for previous traditional Chinese wraps so it may well be worth it to talk to them about this piece.

Gene, I'll try to take some pictures with proper lighting and no flash soon, just haven't had the time to set it all up.

Yu-Ming

Gavin Nugent · 6th January 2009, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yu-Ming Chang

Thanks for the honest and constructive comments from everyone. First, I have to take responsibility for the choice of the red cord; William had wrapped it with a beige cord. While the original old cord is certainly beige now, I thought I saw areas of "pink" which suggested that the original color was more reddish. As I stated, I had at least one other example of a similar dadao (which I gave to my sifu so I can take some pictures of it soon) which has it's original red cord wrap (faded with time of course). The wrap had interwoven red cloth bands on each side of the handle. Based on that and others, it would suggest that the color red is not at all unhistoric.

However, I can certainly see everyone's point, the color and newness of the wrap is jarring now that people are noting it. Even if I replace the wrap, I would probably want to attempt to "age" it a bit. Any suggestions or techniques that have worked well for you?

Lew, thanks for the suggestion to talk to Scott. I actually have used someone, via Philip Tom, for previous traditional Chinese wraps so it may well be worth it to talk to them about this piece.

Gene, I'll try to take some pictures with proper lighting and no flash soon, just haven't had the time to set it all up.

Yu-Ming

A very nice blade you have there Yu-Ming, I very much like the personal touches with the engravings. The fullers too may well have been a personal touch???
I see the hilt wrappings have

shocked

most here and I am happy that you are making the effort to replace the wrap.
I beleive if you see pink in the old beige cord that it was probably beige to begin with but dyed to obtain the red in it's former life.
I have attached an image of the ring pommel and wrapping on mine to show the original flat cord used that the red is still present under the wrapping in places that is now "bleached" over time with use and the elements.
Please find nice flat wrapping, enough to do a few swords and experiment with some red dye.

Gav

Gav

Philip · 6th January 2009, 06:37 AM

It's interesting to note how the lamellar structure of the blade shows a controlled and rather attractive undulating pattern, indicating that the smith took the time to do a decent forging job, and yet the fullers wander drunkenly to and fro. Yet, considering that these weapons were for the most part the products of village smithies, or the makers of domestic knives and tools, it's not that hard to understand. The art of cutting long channels into blade surfaces is a skill that a swordsmith would be expected to practice, but an artisan who makes farm implements or carpenters' tools would have little opportunity to use such techniques. I have a large carpenter's adze, probably late Qing, whose blade shows considerable skill in lamellar forging and localized heat treating, but it's not the sort of thing that requires knowledge of fullering.

Regarding the cord: The color looks more orange than red in the photos, but don't know if that's due to the effect of the flash. Be that as it may, this is something that can easily be replaced, if desired, with something of a more suitable color. It's worth mentioning that it's also important what the cord material is. If it's a synthetic material, of course it should go. But if it's a cotton or hemp-based fiber, at least the material is historical and the color of the existing wrap can be adjusted and "antiqued" if replacement is not desired.

These dadao hilts were originally wrapped in a variety of materials: thick twine-like cord, narrow strips of thick cloth (called "bias tape" in the tailoring trade) in a basketweave pattern, and even split rattan (common on Vietnamese examples). Colors can vary: natural fiber (varying shades of brown), cord dyed or lacquered red or black, cloth tape with dark red and green interwoven, etc. So there's no one material, style, or color that's appropriate. So long as you don't try to use nylon parachute cord when restoring your hilt!

A natural fiber can easily be dyed. I've used good quality leather dyes with good effect (they make great wood stains as well), they come in a variety of shades, are available in smaller sized bottles, and the colors are blendable. Fiebing's is a good brand, I've purchased this product from Jantz Supply in Davis, OK (www.knifemaking.com) The mahogany shade is an attractive dark reddish-brown that is appropriate. (YOU CAN MAKE A LIGHTER COLOR BY POURING SOME OF IT INTO A BOWL OR JAR, AND ADDING ALCOHOL -- EXPERIMENT TIL YOU FIND A SHADE YOU LIKE). A shoemaker's shop might be the source for other colors, in case you want to opt for a deep vermillion red. Apply with a dauber or brush until the color is uniform, and let dry overnight. Then wipe strenuously with a discarded piece of towel to remove excess pigment.

You can add a sheen of age to the dry surface by rubbing in some Johnson's paste-type furniture wax, and buffing with the same brush you use to shine your shoes. The residual shoe polish in the brush will darken the high spots, simulating the oils that gets rubbed into the surface after years of handling. If you want more of a "Long March veteran" look to it, practice your dadao form with the weapon just after you finish cleaning your BBQ grill.

fearn · 6th January 2009, 06:34 PM

Hi All,

I'm enjoying this, as I have a couple of modern dao blades that I want to properly hilt some day (the hilts they came with were junk).

Question on the flat wrap: to my eye it looks like a simple three-ply braid. If so, you can manufacture as much as you want by getting appropriate cord and braiding away (or asking a child of your acquaintance to do it for you).

One question: how is that ring pommel attached to the handle?

Best,
F

Yu-Ming Chang · 6th January 2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

One question: how is that ring pommel attached to the handle?

The ring pommel is actually part of the tang bent back on itself to form the ring after the guard has been placed on. In the picture below, you can see the overlap.

Quote:

I beleive if you see pink in the old beige cord that it was probably beige to begin with but dyed to obtain the red in it's former life.

Yes, I agree, which is one reason I asked for red cord

Quote:

The color looks more orange than red in the photos, but don't know if that's due to the effect of the flash.....But if it's a cotton or hemp-based fiber, at least the material is historical and the color of the existing wrap can be adjusted and "antiqued" if replacement is not desired.

Thank you, Philip, for your comments and advice. The cord is red, the orange tinge is the result of my poor photographic skills and flash. The current cord is cotton based, I'm not quite as tasteless as it may sometimes appear

When I start experimenting with the wrap, I'll post some follow up to get further input to see if I'm getting things right.

Yu-Ming

Gavin Nugent · 6th January 2009, 09:20 PM

Hi Fearn,

I have only ever seen one old dao without the wooden hilt and the ring pommel was actually part of the tang, extended all the way and doubled back just like a long hair pin so to speak, mayhap this was a one of a kind and they are attached differently but that's all I know.
Well there you go, looks like a posted a nano second after Yu-ming. There is a good example, slightly different from what I have seen.
Yu-Ming, do you have any images of you dao's hilt prior to re-wrapping, they may show the ring pommel arrangement better?

Gav

6th January 2009, 03:30 AM	#4
Yu-Ming Chang Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 21	Thanks for the honest and constructive comments from everyone. First, I have to take responsibility for the choice of the red cord; William had wrapped it with a beige cord. While the original old cord is certainly beige now, I thought I saw areas of "pink" which suggested that the original color was more reddish. As I stated, I had at least one other example of a similar dadao (which I gave to my sifu so I can take some pictures of it soon) which has it's original red cord wrap (faded with time of course). The wrap had interwoven red cloth bands on each side of the handle. Based on that and others, it would suggest that the color red is not at all unhistoric. However, I can certainly see everyone's point, the color and newness of the wrap is jarring now that people are noting it. Even if I replace the wrap, I would probably want to attempt to "age" it a bit. Any suggestions or techniques that have worked well for you? Lew, thanks for the suggestion to talk to Scott. I actually have used someone, via Philip Tom, for previous traditional Chinese wraps so it may well be worth it to talk to them about this piece. Gene, I'll try to take some pictures with proper lighting and no flash soon, just haven't had the time to set it all up. Yu-Ming Last edited by Yu-Ming Chang; 6th January 2009 at 04:10 AM.

6th January 2009, 06:37 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	blade details / adjusting grip color It's interesting to note how the lamellar structure of the blade shows a controlled and rather attractive undulating pattern, indicating that the smith took the time to do a decent forging job, and yet the fullers wander drunkenly to and fro. Yet, considering that these weapons were for the most part the products of village smithies, or the makers of domestic knives and tools, it's not that hard to understand. The art of cutting long channels into blade surfaces is a skill that a swordsmith would be expected to practice, but an artisan who makes farm implements or carpenters' tools would have little opportunity to use such techniques. I have a large carpenter's adze, probably late Qing, whose blade shows considerable skill in lamellar forging and localized heat treating, but it's not the sort of thing that requires knowledge of fullering. Regarding the cord: The color looks more orange than red in the photos, but don't know if that's due to the effect of the flash. Be that as it may, this is something that can easily be replaced, if desired, with something of a more suitable color. It's worth mentioning that it's also important what the cord material is. If it's a synthetic material, of course it should go. But if it's a cotton or hemp-based fiber, at least the material is historical and the color of the existing wrap can be adjusted and "antiqued" if replacement is not desired. These dadao hilts were originally wrapped in a variety of materials: thick twine-like cord, narrow strips of thick cloth (called "bias tape" in the tailoring trade) in a basketweave pattern, and even split rattan (common on Vietnamese examples). Colors can vary: natural fiber (varying shades of brown), cord dyed or lacquered red or black, cloth tape with dark red and green interwoven, etc. So there's no one material, style, or color that's appropriate. So long as you don't try to use nylon parachute cord when restoring your hilt! A natural fiber can easily be dyed. I've used good quality leather dyes with good effect (they make great wood stains as well), they come in a variety of shades, are available in smaller sized bottles, and the colors are blendable. Fiebing's is a good brand, I've purchased this product from Jantz Supply in Davis, OK (www.knifemaking.com) The mahogany shade is an attractive dark reddish-brown that is appropriate. (YOU CAN MAKE A LIGHTER COLOR BY POURING SOME OF IT INTO A BOWL OR JAR, AND ADDING ALCOHOL -- EXPERIMENT TIL YOU FIND A SHADE YOU LIKE). A shoemaker's shop might be the source for other colors, in case you want to opt for a deep vermillion red. Apply with a dauber or brush until the color is uniform, and let dry overnight. Then wipe strenuously with a discarded piece of towel to remove excess pigment. You can add a sheen of age to the dry surface by rubbing in some Johnson's paste-type furniture wax, and buffing with the same brush you use to shine your shoes. The residual shoe polish in the brush will darken the high spots, simulating the oils that gets rubbed into the surface after years of handling. If you want more of a "Long March veteran" look to it, practice your dadao form with the weapon just after you finish cleaning your BBQ grill.

6th January 2009, 09:20 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ring Pommel Hi Fearn, I have only ever seen one old dao without the wooden hilt and the ring pommel was actually part of the tang, extended all the way and doubled back just like a long hair pin so to speak, mayhap this was a one of a kind and they are attached differently but that's all I know. Well there you go, looks like a posted a nano second after Yu-ming. There is a good example, slightly different from what I have seen. Yu-Ming, do you have any images of you dao's hilt prior to re-wrapping, they may show the ring pommel arrangement better? Gav

6th January 2009, 12:10 AM	#1
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 183	I totally agree with ariel. In my opinion, an old weapon deserves to look like an old weapon - polishing the blade is fine, but the original handle was not so damaged that it had to be removed completely. Now you have a historical weapon that looks like a modern souvenir... Sorry for being impolite, it's just my opinion. Peter

6th January 2009, 12:36 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I do agree the colour does look very new, but its easy enough to change if needed, replace completely or tone down. I would personally have gone for a dark colour, but it's personal preference. P.S. My poor Dao is still awaiting restoration and the handle is bound with thick string painted black!

6th January 2009, 01:51 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Lovely blade but the wrap must go. It just doesn't blend you should see if someone hear can do a traditional Chinese style wrap. You should contact Scott he may be able to help. http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/ Lew

6th January 2009, 06:34 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, I'm enjoying this, as I have a couple of modern dao blades that I want to properly hilt some day (the hilts they came with were junk). Question on the flat wrap: to my eye it looks like a simple three-ply braid. If so, you can manufacture as much as you want by getting appropriate cord and braiding away (or asking a child of your acquaintance to do it for you). One question: how is that ring pommel attached to the handle? Best, F