Can anyone read Japanese?

[Atlantia]

Take pity on a one language forumite
I know its not a weapon, but the Japanese bronze mirror makers were held in hugely high regard, and I've had this one for ages and I cant read it!
I'm particularly fond of these and have never seen another square one apart from the little 'compact' ones.

Can anyone help?




I've tried to lighten the script on this one:

[Atlantia]

Really, No takers?

Even a partial translation or date ID would be helpful?

C'mon guys, help a brother out!

[migueldiaz]

My Japanese is a bit rusty. But let me give it a try. It says:

"He who tries to behold and admire his likeness in this looking glass will surely stumble. Even monkeys fall from trees."

Hey, I'm just joking! Don't know Japanese at all. But I did send the pic to a Japanese friend and somebody else (Japan-based) who may help out. Let's see if they will be able to respond in time.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

My Japanese is a bit rusty. But let me give it a try. It says:

"He who tries to behold and admire his likeness in this looking glass will surely stumble. Even monkeys fall from trees."

Hey, I'm just joking! Don't know Japanese at all. But I did send the pic to a Japanese friend and somebody else (Japan-based) who may help out. Let's see if they will be able to respond in time.

Hi Miguel,

I laughed out loud at that translation, I would be happy if it said that!
Thank you very much for sending it to your friend I am really greatful for the help.

Happy new Year
Gene

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I laughed out loud at that translation, I would be happy if it said that!

Happy New Year too, Gene!

Well if nobody can translate it for now, then feel free to use my 'tentative' translation if anybody would care to ask.

My Japanese friend can respond Monday at the earliest, since the one I have is his company email address. We'll see.

PS - Paging Hideyoshi ... sir are you still around? Maybe you can help. Thanks in advance!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Happy New Year too, Gene!

Well if nobody can translate it for now, then feel free to use my 'tentative' translation if anybody would care to ask.

My Japanese friend can respond Monday at the earliest, since the one I have is his company email address. We'll see.

PS - Paging Hideyoshi ... sir are you still around? Maybe you can help. Thanks in advance!

Thanks Miguel
I've had it a long time, so I am happy to wait a bit longer
I fear the translation will be much more mundane than your example sadly.
I think they normally go 'name...of the *** school... date'


Regards
Gene

[migueldiaz]

Hi Gene,

Until a Japanese or Chinese member of the forum can give us a direct response, we can make do with the feedback below I just got from a Filipino friend living in Canada, whose uncle is Japanese, and which same friend has several Taiwanese friends [whew!].

Would just like to qualify that given the several stages the info has to go through before it has gotten to me, some transmission errors might have been unwittingly introduced. But just the same, according to my good Filipino friend, and as culled from his multinational sources:

According to the Taiwanese, the first four characters are Chinese: 1. Heaven; 2. Below [or Under]; 3. Wood; and 4. Village.

The middle characters refer to the name of the village which they surmised to be “Imba.” The bird by the way is what they call “tsuru” [crane].

According to the Japanese [uncle], indeed the text is a combination of Japanese and ancient Chinese characters.

As for the last two characters in the bottom, it is supposed to be a combination of two words, which the Japanese said refers to "weight" and "justice", or perhaps "strong justice" then.

As for the rest of the Japanese characters, it's supposed to mean "Number one all over the world".

So stringing together the mixture of Japanese and Chinese text, we get something like -- "Number One All Over the World, Heaven Below/Under, Wood, Imbamura (Imba Vilage), Strong Justice".

I don't know myself what would be sense of that. But that's how ordinary contemporary Taiwanese and Japanese would translate the text.

[Where's my monkeys that falleth from the trees?! ]

Let's see if we can have some more inputs from other sources, from within the forum or otherwise.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hi Gene,

Until a Japanese or Chinese member of the forum can give us a direct response, we can make do with the feedback below I just got from a Filipino friend living in Canada, whose uncle is Japanese, and which same friend has several Taiwanese friends [whew!].

Would just like to qualify that given the several stages the info has to go through before it has gotten to me, some transmission errors might have been unwittingly introduced. But just the same, according to my good Filipino friend, and as culled from his multinational sources:

According to the Taiwanese, the first four characters are Chinese: 1. Heaven; 2. Below [or Under]; 3. Wood; and 4. Village.

The middle characters refer to the name of the village which they surmised to be “Imba.” The bird by the way is what they call “tsuru” [crane].

According to the Japanese [uncle], indeed the text is a combination of Japanese and ancient Chinese characters.

As for the last two characters in the bottom, it is supposed to be a combination of two words, which the Japanese said refers to "weight" and "justice", or perhaps "strong justice" then.

As for the rest of the Japanese characters, it's supposed to mean "Number one all over the world".

So stringing together the mixture of Japanese and Chinese text, we get something like -- "Number One All Over the World, Heaven Below/Under, Wood, Imbamura (Imba Vilage), Strong Justice".

I don't know myself what would be sense of that. But that's how ordinary contemporary Taiwanese and Japanese would translate the text.

[Where's my monkeys that falleth from the trees?! ]

Let's see if we can have some more inputs from other sources, from within the forum or otherwise.

Ah, well thank you again!
These mirrors although Japanese are heavy in chinese influence. I think the Crane/bamboo/plum blossom etc are all symbols of prosperity and longevity in Chinese tradition, but I didn't realise the characters were a mixture! Thats really interesting.
I believe 'First under the heavens' was something put on the finest old mirrors (16thC) I think it was heavily copied onto later mirrors and don't for a second think mine will turn out to be a special one (if for no toher reason than its square and not the usual circular). I didn't think the inscription seemed very long, so I wasn't expecting anything more than the basic 'who, what, where, and when' inscription.
So the thought that it has a legend which claims it is 'number one in all the world, in heaven or below!' Tickles me a lot!!
There should be a clan name (for the maker) and region, so perhaps the character which represents 'wood' could be a clan name? then Imba Village, 'Strong Justice' is a bit of a puzzle?

I believe that as the sword was considered the essence of the Samurai, the bronze mirror was once considered the same of a Japanese lady and were handed down from generation to generation.

Many Thanks
Gene

[Atlantia]

When I first tried to research these mirrors, I happened across this story from Japanese folklore on the net. It only takes a few minutes to read and is rather lovely in a sad way.



From Lafcadio Hearn's classic Kwaidan, 1904.

Eight centuries ago, the priests of Mugenyama, in the province of Totomi (1), wanted a big bell for their temple; and they asked the women of their parish to help them by contributing old bronze mirrors for bell-metal.

[Even to-day, in the courts of certain Japanese temples, you may see heaps of old bronze mirrors contributed for such a purpose. The largest collection of this kind that I ever saw was in the court of a temple of the Jodo sect, at Hakata, in Kyushu: the mirrors had been given for the making of a bronze statue of Amida, thirty-three feet high.]

There was at that time a young woman, a farmer's wife, living at Mugenyama, who presented her mirror to the temple, to be used for bell-metal. But afterwards she much regretted her mirror. She remembered things that her mother had told her about it; and she remembered that it had belonged, not only to her mother but to her mother's mother and grandmother; and she remembered some happy smiles which it had reflected. Of course, if she could have offered the priests a certain sum of money in place of the mirror, she could have asked them to give back her heirloom. But she had not the money necessary. Whenever she went to the temple, she saw her mirror lying in the court-yard, behind a railing, among hundreds of other mirrors heaped there together. She knew it by the Sho-Chiku-Bai in relief on the back of it,-- those three fortunate emblems of Pine, Bamboo, and Plumflower, which delighted her baby-eyes when her mother first showed her the mirror. She longed for some chance to steal the mirror, and hide it,-- that she might thereafter treasure it always. But the chance did not come; and she became very unhappy,-- felt as if she had foolishly given away a part of her life. She thought about the old saying that a mirror is the Soul of a Woman -- (a saying mystically expressed, by the Chinese character for Soul, upon the backs of many bronze mirrors),-- and she feared that it was true in weirder ways than she had before imagined. But she could not dare to speak of her pain to anybody.

Now, when all the mirrors contributed for the Mugenyama bell had been sent to the foundry, the bell-founders discovered that there was one mirror among them which would not melt. Again and again they tried to melt it; but it resisted all their efforts. Evidently the woman who had given that mirror to the temple must have regretted the giving. She had not presented her offering with all her heart; and therefore her selfish soul, remaining attached to the mirror, kept it hard and cold in the midst of the furnace.

Of course everybody heard of the matter, and everybody soon knew whose mirror it was that would not melt. And because of this public exposure of her secret fault, the poor woman became very much ashamed and very angry. And as she could not bear the shame, she drowned herself, after having written a farewell letter containing these words:--

"When I am dead, it will not be difficult to melt the mirror and to cast the bell. But, to the person who breaks that bell by ringing it, great wealth will be given by the ghost of me."

-- You must know that the last wish or promise of anybody who dies in anger, or performs suicide in anger, is generally supposed to possess a supernatural force. After the dead woman's mirror had been melted, and the bell had been successfully cast, people remembered the words of that letter. They felt sure that the spirit of the writer would give wealth to the breaker of the bell; and, as soon as the bell had been suspended in the court of the temple, they went in multitude to ring it. With all their might and main they swung the ringing-beam; but the bell proved to be a good bell, and it bravely withstood their assaults. Nevertheless, the people were not easily discouraged. Day after day, at all hours, they continued to ring the bell furiously,-- caring nothing whatever for the protests of the priests. So the ringing became an affliction; and the priests could not endure it; and they got rid of the bell by rolling it down the hill into a swamp. The swamp was deep, and swallowed it up,-- and that was the end of the bell. Only its legend remains; and in that legend it is called the Mugen-Kane, or Bell of Mugen.

[migueldiaz]

A most poignant story ... thanks for sharing it, Gene.

And I sure am glad I can help partially lift the veil of mystery surrounding the mirror!

Have you tried Googling for "Imbamura" by the way? Kindly please refer to the attached pics. The village happens to be northeast of Tokyo. And there's this body of water (marshland?) right next to Imbamura. Which probably explains why there's an image of a crane in the mirror ...

[migueldiaz]

I googled "all under heaven" and its calligraphy (below) certainly looks very similar to the first four characters in the mirror.

The entire article says:

All under heaven, or literally, "heaven under" (Chinese: 天下; pinyin: tiān xià), is a phrase in the Chinese language and a cultural concept in China.

The Chinese character 天 means "sky" or "heaven". 下 means "under" or "down". 天下 together, literally means "under the sky". The word 天下, besides the literal meaning, is also taken by Chinese as referring to the whole world. In this context then, it can perhaps be best understood and translated as "Everything Under the Heavens". Only in modern times has the term 世界 (shì jiè) come into use to directly refer to the world.

In classical Chinese political thought, the Emperor of China would nominally be the ruler of All under heaven, that is, the entire world. Although in practice there would be areas of the known world which were not under the control of the Emperor, in Chinese political theory the political rulers of those areas derived their power from the Emperor.

Usage

A common term meaning "the world", tiān xià has been used throughout history. It is ordinary to name various things, ranging from city gates, such as Shanhai Guan, to snacks, as "The first under heaven" or "The best under heaven" (tiān xià dì yī, 天下第一).

Another usage for "tiān xià" is "tiān xià wéi gōng" (天下為公), which literally means "all is equal under heaven". In other words, the world exists not for a ruler or one person, but for all.

"Tiān xià wú nán shì" (天下無難事) is another phrase concerning "Tiān xià", meaning "[There is] no difficulty under heaven".

Variants

The Chinese term "All under heaven" has been borrowed into Korean, where it is pronounced Cheon Ha. In the ssireum, Korea's traditional style of wrestling, Cheon Ha refers to the championship of all weights (perhaps best interpreted as world champion).

It has also been borrowed into Japanese, where it is pronounced tenka. For example, moves to unite the whole of Japan by lords such as Oda Nobunaga or Tokugawa Ieyasu were characterized as 'seizing tenka' (tenka wo toru 天下 を 取る).

The term is also borrowed into Vietnamese as thiên hạ. Its usage is similar as in Chinese, where it means "the world" or "everybody".

The term "all under heaven" is also the theme of one of my favorite movies, Hero (2002).

[stekemest]

The province is not IMBA, but INABA, now part of TOTTORI prefecture in south western Japan. First three are TENKA-ICHI, first under the heavens. The use of that title was prohibited in 1682, but was still inoficially used until the 19th century. The character below the province means KASE(GU) which is "to work".The smith's name must either be the last two characters (OMO?YOSHI) or the characters below TENKA-ICHI (which I can't make out except -MURA).
There doesn't seem to be a date.
My Japanese isn't the best though.

Peter

[stekemest]

By the way, the image itself has nothing to do with the place of manufacture. It is a standard theme showing a crane, pines and bamboo, all of which stand for "long life".
stm

[Atlantia]

Miguel and Peter, Thank you so much!

Gentlemen, I can only say:

Dômo arigatô gozaimasu

Which I believe is the correct form when expressing gratitude to ones teachers.



I remember seeing a couple of others translated somewhere which might give us more of an idea of what the remaining characters might say. I'm off to look now!

Back later, thank you again chaps!


Regards
Gene

[stekemest]

It must be a name: ??mura. Probably the one who made it ("??mura, the first under heavens, working in Inaba province").

Which I believe is the correct form when expressing gratitude to ones teachers.

Yes it is.

Peter

[Atlantia]

Hmmm, I'm not being much help here. I can see from others wher I can find a partial or full translation that the fact that this one starts with the 'Tenka-Ichi' prefix then the rest is probobly going to be makers name, clan name, the name of the place where it was made, and possibly the region.
LOL, a date wuould have been nice!
I did find one site with a mention of these square ones and it said 'The Kaku (square) type is unique in that they are seldom seen.'

Tantalisingly close!!! Very happy to have got so much info on my little mirror already.


Regards
Gene

[stekemest]

Well, it doesn't look too old to me. Probably late edo to meiji, 1800-1900. Unfortunately, I haven't had much to do with kagami, so I can't really date it...
stm

[drdavid]

I think the 4th and 5th radicals are Ki meaning tree/wood and Itsu/Otsu meaning second or latter. These are radicals 75 and 5 using the New Nelson Japanese/English character dictionary.

If you just take the initial 3 radicals 天下一 , this would also translate as the best on earth, then you have the ki radical 木 for wood or tree, I cannot figure where this fits into the scheme of things and then 乙村 which could translate as Otomura which is a town in Nara province, unfortunately nowhere near Inaba that I can see. I suspect a native japanese speaker could enlighten us pretty quickly
cheers
David

[stekemest]

Yes, I thought 4 and 5 should be one character, but probably you really have to read them seperately. I just can't figure out the meaning then. Otomura could also be a name, but what about the moku/boku/ki...?

Peter

[Atlantia]

Welcome David,

A couple of areas are a little indistinct, perhaps a larger picture would be clearer? It reallly hard to photograph clearly unfortunately.
Thanks for helping us
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by stekemest

Well, it doesn't look too old to me. Probably late edo to meiji, 1800-1900. Unfortunately, I haven't had much to do with kagami, so I can't really date it...
stm

Well, some years ago I bought it at a car boot sale from a chap who was selling a collection of brass items hed collected over many years, I didn't even initially notice it as I was looking at some Hindu figures and when I did spot it I didn't have a clue what it was but liked the hue of the metal. Once I figured out it must be a mirror I thought it would probobly be a souvenier from during the occupation!
So really any older than that is a bonus! lol


Gene

[migueldiaz]

Hi Gene,

You're most welcome and the pleasure is mine too

Ok, I've just received the response of my Japanese friend, and this is direct from Tokyo and this would supplement what Stekemest and Drdavid have mentioned --

He says that the name of the manufacturer is inscribed at the backside of the mirror. I'll ask him later to elaborate on this.

He also "guesses" that the mirror was made around 110 to 200 years ago. Don't know whether "110" was a typo and whether he meant "100".

As for the 10 characters, his preliminary reading is: [a] 1st to 3rd Kanji is "TENKA ICHI"; [b] 6th to 7th Kanji is "INBA"; and [c] 9th to 10th Kanji is "SHIGE YOSHI".

Again I'll ask him later what would be the English translation and/or transliteration of the above.

More later ...

[celtan]

I though that kanji were identical for japanese and chinese, the difference being how they are pronounced, that is, the sounds associated to them.

[stekemest]

That's right celtan, but the combination of characters (as the grammar etc) differ. And Chinese mirrors look totally different; more ornamental (as everything else in Chinese decorative art).
"SHIGE", that's interesting. But I still wonder what that tree/second/mura-combination means. Still guess it's a name.

stm

[Freddy]

I asked Chieko, the Japanese wife of a distant relative, and she came up with the following translation :

From top to bottom she reads 11 characters

1 = TEN

2 = KA

3 = ICHI

4 & 5 = MATSU

6 = MURA

7 = INA

8 = BA

9 = KAMI

10 = SHIGE

11 = YOSHI

The two last characters are the maker's first name : SHIGEYOSHI.

INABA is the name of the town or village, which is now called TOTTORI

She thinks this piece was made between 1626 an 1747. Some of the chararcters used on this mirror are old characters from the Edo-period.

[Atlantia]

Wow! You all deserve a huge pat on the back for this sterling work gentlemen.
Welcome Manuel
Freddy! Thats amazing thank you!!! 17th/18thC is a huge suprise! And a VERY good one of course

Anyone want to try a full english translation?

Kind Regards
Gene

[stekemest]

Why does she think between 1626 and 1747?
I'd understand if she said 17th/18th century (though I'd still think it's not that old), but why those dates?

stm

[migueldiaz]

Here's the 2nd pass of my Tokyo-based Japanese friend.

He qualified that it's not easy to decipher the meaning, but this would be his best try:

[1] 1st to 3rd Kanji is " TEN KA ICHI "
[2] 4th to 5th Kanji is " MATSU MURA "
[3] 6th to 8th Kanji is " INA BA JYOU "
[4] 9th to 10th Kanji is " SHIGE YOSHI "

And his best "guess" of what all the above mean is:

"1" is a common name or the generic name for all mirror manufacturers in that period;

"2" is the name of the family that manufactures the mirror;

"3" is the place where the mirror was made; and

"4" is first name of mirror's maker.

[drdavid]

Matsu would be a possible for the 木乙 combination, given the variability in kanji over time, a standard version today looks like 枩. Matsumura is a Japanese surname so I think your friend is very likely correct miguel. Sorry to send everyone on a wild goose chase.
david

[Atlantia]

So could the Matsumura name denote the clan name, whilst Shige Yoshi is the actual artisan?

I notice the only remaining difference in our experts readings is 'Kami' or 'Jyou'. Does this word form part of the description of where it was made?


Many Thanks
Gene