Can anyone read Japanese?

Atlantia · 3rd January 2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

My Japanese is a bit rusty. But let me give it a try. It says:

"He who tries to behold and admire his likeness in this looking glass will surely stumble. Even monkeys fall from trees."

Hey, I'm just joking!

Don't know Japanese at all. But I did send the pic to a Japanese friend and somebody else (Japan-based) who may help out. Let's see if they will be able to respond in time.

Hi Miguel,

I laughed out loud at that translation, I would be happy if it said that!

Thank you very much for sending it to your friend I am really greatful for the help.

Happy new Year
Gene

migueldiaz · 3rd January 2009, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I laughed out loud at that translation, I would be happy if it said that!

Happy New Year too, Gene!

Well if nobody can translate it for now, then feel free to use my 'tentative'

translation if anybody would care to ask.

My Japanese friend can respond Monday at the earliest, since the one I have is his company email address. We'll see.

PS - Paging Hideyoshi ... sir are you still around? Maybe you can help. Thanks in advance!

Atlantia · 3rd January 2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Happy New Year too, Gene!

Well if nobody can translate it for now, then feel free to use my 'tentative'

translation if anybody would care to ask.

My Japanese friend can respond Monday at the earliest, since the one I have is his company email address. We'll see.

PS - Paging Hideyoshi ... sir are you still around? Maybe you can help. Thanks in advance!

Thanks Miguel
I've had it a long time, so I am happy to wait a bit longer

I fear the translation will be much more mundane than your example sadly.
I think they normally go 'name...of the *** school... date'

Regards
Gene

migueldiaz · 3rd January 2009, 03:09 AM

Hi Gene,

Until a Japanese or Chinese member of the forum can give us a direct response, we can make do with the feedback below I just got from a Filipino friend living in Canada, whose uncle is Japanese, and which same friend has several Taiwanese friends [whew!].

Would just like to qualify that given the several stages the info has to go through before it has gotten to me, some transmission errors might have been unwittingly introduced. But just the same, according to my good Filipino friend, and as culled from his multinational sources:

According to the Taiwanese, the first four characters are Chinese: 1. Heaven; 2. Below [or Under]; 3. Wood; and 4. Village.

The middle characters refer to the name of the village which they surmised to be “Imba.” The bird by the way is what they call “tsuru” [crane].

According to the Japanese [uncle], indeed the text is a combination of Japanese and ancient Chinese characters.

As for the last two characters in the bottom, it is supposed to be a combination of two words, which the Japanese said refers to "weight" and "justice", or perhaps "strong justice" then.

As for the rest of the Japanese characters, it's supposed to mean "Number one all over the world".

So stringing together the mixture of Japanese and Chinese text, we get something like -- "Number One All Over the World, Heaven Below/Under, Wood, Imbamura (Imba Vilage), Strong Justice".

I don't know myself what would be sense of that. But that's how ordinary contemporary Taiwanese and Japanese would translate the text.

[Where's my monkeys that falleth from the trees?!

]

Let's see if we can have some more inputs from other sources, from within the forum or otherwise.

Atlantia · 3rd January 2009, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hi Gene,

Until a Japanese or Chinese member of the forum can give us a direct response, we can make do with the feedback below I just got from a Filipino friend living in Canada, whose uncle is Japanese, and which same friend has several Taiwanese friends [whew!].

Would just like to qualify that given the several stages the info has to go through before it has gotten to me, some transmission errors might have been unwittingly introduced. But just the same, according to my good Filipino friend, and as culled from his multinational sources:

According to the Taiwanese, the first four characters are Chinese: 1. Heaven; 2. Below [or Under]; 3. Wood; and 4. Village.

The middle characters refer to the name of the village which they surmised to be “Imba.” The bird by the way is what they call “tsuru” [crane].

According to the Japanese [uncle], indeed the text is a combination of Japanese and ancient Chinese characters.

As for the last two characters in the bottom, it is supposed to be a combination of two words, which the Japanese said refers to "weight" and "justice", or perhaps "strong justice" then.

As for the rest of the Japanese characters, it's supposed to mean "Number one all over the world".

So stringing together the mixture of Japanese and Chinese text, we get something like -- "Number One All Over the World, Heaven Below/Under, Wood, Imbamura (Imba Vilage), Strong Justice".

I don't know myself what would be sense of that. But that's how ordinary contemporary Taiwanese and Japanese would translate the text.

[Where's my monkeys that falleth from the trees?!

]

Let's see if we can have some more inputs from other sources, from within the forum or otherwise.

Ah, well thank you again!

These mirrors although Japanese are heavy in chinese influence. I think the Crane/bamboo/plum blossom etc are all symbols of prosperity and longevity in Chinese tradition, but I didn't realise the characters were a mixture! Thats really interesting.
I believe 'First under the heavens' was something put on the finest old mirrors (16thC) I think it was heavily copied onto later mirrors and don't for a second think mine will turn out to be a special one (if for no toher reason than its square and not the usual circular). I didn't think the inscription seemed very long, so I wasn't expecting anything more than the basic 'who, what, where, and when' inscription.
So the thought that it has a legend which claims it is 'number one in all the world, in heaven or below!' Tickles me a lot!!
There should be a clan name (for the maker) and region, so perhaps the character which represents 'wood' could be a clan name? then Imba Village, 'Strong Justice' is a bit of a puzzle?

I believe that as the sword was considered the essence of the Samurai, the bronze mirror was once considered the same of a Japanese lady and were handed down from generation to generation.

Many Thanks

Gene

Atlantia · 3rd January 2009, 04:07 AM

When I first tried to research these mirrors, I happened across this story from Japanese folklore on the net. It only takes a few minutes to read and is rather lovely in a sad way.

From Lafcadio Hearn's classic Kwaidan, 1904.

Eight centuries ago, the priests of Mugenyama, in the province of Totomi (1), wanted a big bell for their temple; and they asked the women of their parish to help them by contributing old bronze mirrors for bell-metal.

[Even to-day, in the courts of certain Japanese temples, you may see heaps of old bronze mirrors contributed for such a purpose. The largest collection of this kind that I ever saw was in the court of a temple of the Jodo sect, at Hakata, in Kyushu: the mirrors had been given for the making of a bronze statue of Amida, thirty-three feet high.]

There was at that time a young woman, a farmer's wife, living at Mugenyama, who presented her mirror to the temple, to be used for bell-metal. But afterwards she much regretted her mirror. She remembered things that her mother had told her about it; and she remembered that it had belonged, not only to her mother but to her mother's mother and grandmother; and she remembered some happy smiles which it had reflected. Of course, if she could have offered the priests a certain sum of money in place of the mirror, she could have asked them to give back her heirloom. But she had not the money necessary. Whenever she went to the temple, she saw her mirror lying in the court-yard, behind a railing, among hundreds of other mirrors heaped there together. She knew it by the Sho-Chiku-Bai in relief on the back of it,-- those three fortunate emblems of Pine, Bamboo, and Plumflower, which delighted her baby-eyes when her mother first showed her the mirror. She longed for some chance to steal the mirror, and hide it,-- that she might thereafter treasure it always. But the chance did not come; and she became very unhappy,-- felt as if she had foolishly given away a part of her life. She thought about the old saying that a mirror is the Soul of a Woman -- (a saying mystically expressed, by the Chinese character for Soul, upon the backs of many bronze mirrors),-- and she feared that it was true in weirder ways than she had before imagined. But she could not dare to speak of her pain to anybody.

Now, when all the mirrors contributed for the Mugenyama bell had been sent to the foundry, the bell-founders discovered that there was one mirror among them which would not melt. Again and again they tried to melt it; but it resisted all their efforts. Evidently the woman who had given that mirror to the temple must have regretted the giving. She had not presented her offering with all her heart; and therefore her selfish soul, remaining attached to the mirror, kept it hard and cold in the midst of the furnace.

Of course everybody heard of the matter, and everybody soon knew whose mirror it was that would not melt. And because of this public exposure of her secret fault, the poor woman became very much ashamed and very angry. And as she could not bear the shame, she drowned herself, after having written a farewell letter containing these words:--

"When I am dead, it will not be difficult to melt the mirror and to cast the bell. But, to the person who breaks that bell by ringing it, great wealth will be given by the ghost of me."

-- You must know that the last wish or promise of anybody who dies in anger, or performs suicide in anger, is generally supposed to possess a supernatural force. After the dead woman's mirror had been melted, and the bell had been successfully cast, people remembered the words of that letter. They felt sure that the spirit of the writer would give wealth to the breaker of the bell; and, as soon as the bell had been suspended in the court of the temple, they went in multitude to ring it. With all their might and main they swung the ringing-beam; but the bell proved to be a good bell, and it bravely withstood their assaults. Nevertheless, the people were not easily discouraged. Day after day, at all hours, they continued to ring the bell furiously,-- caring nothing whatever for the protests of the priests. So the ringing became an affliction; and the priests could not endure it; and they got rid of the bell by rolling it down the hill into a swamp. The swamp was deep, and swallowed it up,-- and that was the end of the bell. Only its legend remains; and in that legend it is called the Mugen-Kane, or Bell of Mugen.

migueldiaz · 3rd January 2009, 05:37 AM

A most poignant story ... thanks for sharing it, Gene.

And I sure am glad I can help partially lift the veil of mystery

surrounding the mirror!

Have you tried Googling for "Imbamura" by the way? Kindly please refer to the attached pics. The village happens to be northeast of Tokyo. And there's this body of water (marshland?) right next to Imbamura. Which probably explains why there's an image of a crane in the mirror ...

3rd January 2009, 03:09 AM	#4
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hi Gene, Until a Japanese or Chinese member of the forum can give us a direct response, we can make do with the feedback below I just got from a Filipino friend living in Canada, whose uncle is Japanese, and which same friend has several Taiwanese friends [whew!]. Would just like to qualify that given the several stages the info has to go through before it has gotten to me, some transmission errors might have been unwittingly introduced. But just the same, according to my good Filipino friend, and as culled from his multinational sources: According to the Taiwanese, the first four characters are Chinese: 1. Heaven; 2. Below [or Under]; 3. Wood; and 4. Village. The middle characters refer to the name of the village which they surmised to be “Imba.” The bird by the way is what they call “tsuru” [crane]. According to the Japanese [uncle], indeed the text is a combination of Japanese and ancient Chinese characters. As for the last two characters in the bottom, it is supposed to be a combination of two words, which the Japanese said refers to "weight" and "justice", or perhaps "strong justice" then. As for the rest of the Japanese characters, it's supposed to mean "Number one all over the world". So stringing together the mixture of Japanese and Chinese text, we get something like -- "Number One All Over the World, Heaven Below/Under, Wood, Imbamura (Imba Vilage), Strong Justice". I don't know myself what would be sense of that. But that's how ordinary contemporary Taiwanese and Japanese would translate the text. [Where's my monkeys that falleth from the trees?! ] Let's see if we can have some more inputs from other sources, from within the forum or otherwise.

3rd January 2009, 05:37 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	A most poignant story ... thanks for sharing it, Gene. And I sure am glad I can help partially lift the veil of mystery surrounding the mirror! Have you tried Googling for "Imbamura" by the way? Kindly please refer to the attached pics. The village happens to be northeast of Tokyo. And there's this body of water (marshland?) right next to Imbamura. Which probably explains why there's an image of a crane in the mirror ... Attached Images

3rd January 2009, 04:07 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	When I first tried to research these mirrors, I happened across this story from Japanese folklore on the net. It only takes a few minutes to read and is rather lovely in a sad way. From Lafcadio Hearn's classic Kwaidan, 1904. Eight centuries ago, the priests of Mugenyama, in the province of Totomi (1), wanted a big bell for their temple; and they asked the women of their parish to help them by contributing old bronze mirrors for bell-metal. [Even to-day, in the courts of certain Japanese temples, you may see heaps of old bronze mirrors contributed for such a purpose. The largest collection of this kind that I ever saw was in the court of a temple of the Jodo sect, at Hakata, in Kyushu: the mirrors had been given for the making of a bronze statue of Amida, thirty-three feet high.] There was at that time a young woman, a farmer's wife, living at Mugenyama, who presented her mirror to the temple, to be used for bell-metal. But afterwards she much regretted her mirror. She remembered things that her mother had told her about it; and she remembered that it had belonged, not only to her mother but to her mother's mother and grandmother; and she remembered some happy smiles which it had reflected. Of course, if she could have offered the priests a certain sum of money in place of the mirror, she could have asked them to give back her heirloom. But she had not the money necessary. Whenever she went to the temple, she saw her mirror lying in the court-yard, behind a railing, among hundreds of other mirrors heaped there together. She knew it by the Sho-Chiku-Bai in relief on the back of it,-- those three fortunate emblems of Pine, Bamboo, and Plumflower, which delighted her baby-eyes when her mother first showed her the mirror. She longed for some chance to steal the mirror, and hide it,-- that she might thereafter treasure it always. But the chance did not come; and she became very unhappy,-- felt as if she had foolishly given away a part of her life. She thought about the old saying that a mirror is the Soul of a Woman -- (a saying mystically expressed, by the Chinese character for Soul, upon the backs of many bronze mirrors),-- and she feared that it was true in weirder ways than she had before imagined. But she could not dare to speak of her pain to anybody. Now, when all the mirrors contributed for the Mugenyama bell had been sent to the foundry, the bell-founders discovered that there was one mirror among them which would not melt. Again and again they tried to melt it; but it resisted all their efforts. Evidently the woman who had given that mirror to the temple must have regretted the giving. She had not presented her offering with all her heart; and therefore her selfish soul, remaining attached to the mirror, kept it hard and cold in the midst of the furnace. Of course everybody heard of the matter, and everybody soon knew whose mirror it was that would not melt. And because of this public exposure of her secret fault, the poor woman became very much ashamed and very angry. And as she could not bear the shame, she drowned herself, after having written a farewell letter containing these words:-- "When I am dead, it will not be difficult to melt the mirror and to cast the bell. But, to the person who breaks that bell by ringing it, great wealth will be given by the ghost of me." -- You must know that the last wish or promise of anybody who dies in anger, or performs suicide in anger, is generally supposed to possess a supernatural force. After the dead woman's mirror had been melted, and the bell had been successfully cast, people remembered the words of that letter. They felt sure that the spirit of the writer would give wealth to the breaker of the bell; and, as soon as the bell had been suspended in the court of the temple, they went in multitude to ring it. With all their might and main they swung the ringing-beam; but the bell proved to be a good bell, and it bravely withstood their assaults. Nevertheless, the people were not easily discouraged. Day after day, at all hours, they continued to ring the bell furiously,-- caring nothing whatever for the protests of the priests. So the ringing became an affliction; and the priests could not endure it; and they got rid of the bell by rolling it down the hill into a swamp. The swamp was deep, and swallowed it up,-- and that was the end of the bell. Only its legend remains; and in that legend it is called the Mugen-Kane, or Bell of Mugen.