Pamor identity, help

[Lei Shen Dao]

Hi dear keris lovers

A friend of mine acquired an old keris.
However he would like to learn more about the pamor.

He has been told Madura keris, tanguh Majapahit (?), pamor Bungkus (?).

I know that the tanguh estimation is something very difficult from some photos only, what about the pamor?

Thanks in advance.

[Lei Shen Dao]

the other side of the sorsoran

[skalomatias]

Hi everybody...
This is my first post in the forum.This keris is mine and my first.Can you give me some information about the pamor?
Yersteday i tried to clean the blade with some lime and water.I'll upload some new photos to show the difference.

Thanks in advance.
Jimmy.

[David]

Welcome Jimmy.
Judging from the photos posted it doesn't really look like your keris really needs too much cleaning. I would just oil the blade if i were you.

[Henk]

Welcome to the forum Jimmy.

Like David said, your keris needed only some oil. I really hope the lime didn't do too much damage to the etching.

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by skalomatias

Hi everybody...
This is my first post in the forum.This keris is mine and my first.Can you give me some information about the pamor?
Yersteday i tried to clean the blade with some lime and water.I'll upload some new photos to show the difference.

Thanks in advance.
Jimmy.

Hello welcome to the forum.
I would say that the pamor is generally pendaringan kebak (dense pamor throughout the blade) + pamor bungkus alright, resembles by the abstract shown on the first picture-on the bottom center of the blade.

I'm not going far into tangguh as it is beyond my understanding, but it seems like you have a 20c keris there (probably I'm wrong). Hilt looks Madurese but not very clear, what is it made of? Maybe you want to post the picture of the sheath sometime. The hilt ring (mendak) looks Javanese. Dapur (blade shape/style) might be Tilam Upih.

[skalomatias]

Thanks for your answers.

Some photos of the hilt.

[skalomatias]

and the hilt ring.(I think it's very new.)

[skalomatias]

and some photos after some cleaning.

firts side of sorsoran

[skalomatias]

the other side of the sorsoran

[David]

It might just be the photos themselves, but i am sorry to say that your cleaning does appear to have lessened the contrast in your pamor.

[skalomatias]

No it's just the photos.Bad light.

[Henk]

I'm afraid I have the same feeling like David. I can hardly believe the lime had no effect on the pamor contrast.

[A. G. Maisey]

May I enquire Jimmy, what sort of lime did you use, how did you use it , and how much did you use?

[skalomatias]

Hi again and happy new year.....
Sorry for the delay but i had a problem with my dsl connection and after that holidays came.
Dear A.G.Maisey i used limes for the supermarket.I follow the procedure that was posted in an other post.

Basically, there would be 4 general steps for keris etching in traditional way.
1. Soak the blade in coconut water and lime juices solutions. This step only necessary when the blade is heavily corroded or having an old, stubborn etch. The soak would last usually from 1 night to 1 week, depending on the severity. This step should be omitted if we have a clean blade.
2. Mutih (from putih=white. Mutih=to make it clean white). An important step which directly affect your etching result. Pure lime juice is brushed on the blade, then wait a moment until it react with the blade (the color change to yellowish-green), then brush again. Continue brush-and-wait prosess, and add a small amount of juices only when necessary (e.g. when the blade dry-up). You should see the juices get thicken and turn into dark brown during the process. Wash the blade when the juices has became too dark or when the blade has been white-clean. Care should be taken to get rid all the juice/acid, or the rust would start to develop again as soon as the blade dry.
3. Marangi= to apply the warangan solution.
4. Oiling

I did everything except step 3 because i can't find arsenic.
I used half a lime.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that.

Yeah supermarket limes would probably be OK, I needed to clarify that you did indeed use lime fruit, not lime powder, and not lemons.

However, the instructions you have followed are not really adequate for somebody who is new to blade staining.

Additionally, unless you do the complete process, you are worse than just wasting your time. This blade was quite OK to begin with, and did not need any cleaning nor staining. Blade staining is a definite skill and it takes time to learn it. I've been doing blades for years, and I can still encounter difficulties in getting an acceptable job.
If you have not used the arsenic, you have not done the job.

Sometimes, with an old blade, there is sufficient residual arsenic in the pores of the metal to give a reasonable stain without using arsenic, but you still need to bring the blade back to white before applying the lime juice. There can be many variations in the process.

Your blade now looks too dark and lacking contrast, if it is just the light, don't worry about it, but if indeed it is too dark and lacking contrast, you may care to try rubbing it under running water with the inside of a lime skin. This will lighten the colour to allow the contrast to be seen.

Here is a slightly more detailed explanation od blade staining. Its something I wrote some years ago to save me time with this frequently asked question. I think it might have been published in this Forum previously.

To clean a rusty old keris blade:-

Actually any mildly acidic agent will do the job.In Jawa the traditional agent is coconut water,but in recent years people have used other acids such as citric,and very dilute sulphuric.
I prefer pineapple juice,which I can buy in 5 litre tins.
Vinegar works well too.
Scrub the blade with detergent and a hard toothbrush under warm running water,to get rid of any surface dirt and oil.Lay the blade in a trough and cover with the cleaning agent.
A plastic wall paper hanging trough is good for this.Remove the blade each day and scrub it under running water with a hard tooth brush,to remove the rust that the cleaning agent has freed up.I usually do this twice a day-morning and evening.After a few days you will find that most of the rust has washed off ,but there will probably be still a few small areas that have little bits of hard rust stuck to them. Carefully chip these pieces of rust off with a sharp tool.A small sharp pocket knife blade, or a saddler's needle works well.Most blades come clean in under a week,but it could take longer.
My experience with pineapple juice is that longer periods in the soak do the blade no harm at all.
Sometimes during hot weather a culture will grow on top of the pineapple juice,and it will start to smell bad. Ignore this,it does no harm---except maybe to your marriage if you have left the trough in the bathroom.
When all the rust is off,wash the blade thoroughly,and if you do not intend to stain it,kill residual acid with bi-carbonate of soda. Paint on a slurry,leave for a few minutes ,thoroughly rinse off. Pat the blade dry,and then leave in hot sunlight,or use a hairdryer to ensure totally dry.
This completes the cleaning process.


To stain a blade:-

In Jawa this is a specialist job. It is not just a matter of turning the iron black. It is necessary to bring out the correct colours of the blade,and to do this it is necessary to know what the correct colours should be for each particular classification of blade.There are not very many people in Central Jawa today who can do this job well.

You will need:Small quantity of laboratory grade white arsenic (arsenic tri-oxide) .NB:- in Jawa we do not normally use white arsenic, but rather a naturally occurring arsenic compound known as warangan; method of use is the same as I describe for the white arsenic.The juice of a tahitian lime,strained to remove solids.A soft old toothbrush.A small tumbler.A day when the weather is not too hot, not toocold,not too humid,not too dry.Say about 70F.and about 50 percent humidity.A place open to sky light,but not to sunlight.Some old,lint free cotton cloth.

Process:-Take sufficient arsenic as would cover a mans fingernail(this quantity is not critical).Make a paste of the arsenic with a few drops of lime juice.Gradually add more lime juice to produce a solution to the quantity of about one third of an egg cup.Let the solution sit for about 30 minutes.Work in the place identified above.Dip the brush into the solution,shake off the excess fluid.The brush should be damp,not wet.Rub the damp brush up and down each side of the blade.When the surface of the blade starts to get sticky,dampen the brush again.Repeat this several times,or as many times as it takes to bring up the colour.Keep working at it until the colour looks O.K.,or until the blade looks murky.Rinse it off under cold running water,pat dry with a lint free cloth,finish drying with a hairdryer(traditionally we dry it in the sun,but this is very hard to control,and if the blade gets too hot,it will finish up too dark).
After you rinse it, the colour will get paler.You then repeat and repeat the process until you get the colour you want.When you reckon it is just about right,rinse and dry as above,spray with W.D.40 and leave to dry overnight before applying one of the traditional fragrant oils,usually sandalwood,or sandalwood based.

As noted above,different classifications of blade will be different colours.As a very broad guide,older blades will frequently be various shades of grey,rather than black with high contrast nickel pamor .It does not matter how clever someone might be at staining blades,he cannot make material which should appear grey and grey,appear black and silver.

There are other agents apart from arsenic which will produce some sort of a result on a keris blade,but they are not able to produce the correct colours;only arsenic can do that.

There you are:that`s the way to stain a keris blade.If you try it, be careful with the arsenic.If you are not,you might wake up dead. No, not really,but I must put this warning in because this will be read by a great many people.Arsenic will kill you if taken by mouth in sufficient quantity,and will penetrate the skin and accumulate in your body and make you ill,and eventually kill you.People who work with arsenic ,treating timber and such,must have regular tests to ensure their arsenic levels are not rising.However,I have met a number of old men in Jawa who have worked with arsenic for years. They do not die of arsenic poisoning,but of heart attack,or emphasema.I have used the stuff periodically for about 40 years,and although I do have health problems now that I did not have 40 years ago,I don`t believe I can blame the arsenic.

Just one last word:- the mistake most beginners make is to stain the blade too dark. This is not a disaster,just clean it off with powder sink cleaner(EG. Bon Ami)and steel wool and start again.

And one more last word.How long does it take?Anywhere between ten minutes and ten days. Old blades normally stain fairly quickly and easily,more recent blades are sometimes very,very difficult.And a tip on preventing blades from rusting in the first place:- after applying oil,wrap them in plastic sandwich wrap.