If one would be made for you how would it be?

Marcokeris · 18th December 2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

I am lucky ! my dream keris exist :
A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta.
Page 161 of court art of Indonesia
A beauty !

Michel

I totally agree with you.

This is the best keris, sarong, hit i never seen

For my taste an absolute masterpiece .

David · 18th December 2008, 08:37 PM

Well Michel and Marco (and others presenting already existing keris), as has been pointed out, the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true.

So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?

Michel · 18th December 2008, 10:17 PM

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

David · 22nd December 2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

Forgive me Michel, i am not trying to take away your "dream keris". I am merely pointing out that that was not the point of this particular exercise. So what you are saying then is that if you could have a keris made from scratch that it would look exactly like this one right down to the same dhapur, pamor and dress? That's OK of course. But what about details that you possibly don't know about this pre-existing masterpiece? What kind of pamor material would you use? Meteorite? Where would you source the iron from? An intensive knowledge of keris culture isn't really necessary for this exercise because the keris could be made to suit your own needs and culture. Alan, for instance, who obviously has a better understanding of keris culture than most, is putting forth a dhapur, pamor and dress that is both culturally and environmentally based on things Australian.
Michel, when the keris you have posted was made for it's original owner choices of pamor and dhapur were made based on the status, needs and personality of that original owner. I believe what Jussi was trying to establish was how we would go about making those choices for ourselves and possibly why. It's not really a matter of accumulating the most beautiful parts of all the best keris we have seen. It's about what you feel would be appropriate for you.

Michel · 22nd December 2008, 09:26 PM

Thank you David,
To have taken so much time and effort to explain the rules of this little game.
Now, if one cannot abide to the rules, one should not play at all !
So I should not have played ! Why ?
Because there is no way I could play by the rules, of figuring out a keris that would be my dream keris. I am not an artist who can create from nothing an object, which will be an art piece. I need example, something I can base my ideas on and develop from there with sets of rules. If I do not know the rules, I will be in trouble developing anything.
Mastering the rules of the keris, is something that Alan and may be you, have done but not me. Alan having learned and worked many years under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijaya is probably capable of describing a keris that would suite him. He has done it in his December 13 description but with all respect for Alan description, I cannot see his keris, I cannot visualise his description. Ferrylaki did the same, I cannot see his dream keris.
Kiai Carita did the same, quite precisely, but still I cannot see what he dreams of.
Do I care about the origin of the nickel, if it is meteorite or from a bicycle ? Absolutely not !
The pamor, yes I do love the example I have shown, neat, precise, discreet, not flashy but elegant.
Doest it mean, that this example is “THE Kris” for me ? No, it is the one that I have seen, that pleases me most.
Does it mean it is the one that would best fit my Personality? I do not care, this aspect of the keris culture goes far beyond my understanding and ability to admit a reciprocal influence between the keris and the personality.
I summary Davis, a far too long message for a game I should not have done !
If you can play by these rules, fine with me, but I am afraid I will not be able to know your dream keris! But keep dreaming !
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 22nd December 2008, 09:51 PM

Michel, as far as I'm concerned you played the game OK.

You like the keris you posted a pic of.

OK, you just give this pic to somebody who understands a bit more than you do, and tell them to get it duplicated. This can be done. For you, its a visual thing, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Fair enough.

For me, this game is just that:- a game.

Bram and I have been making exchanges that are completely specious. We both know we are talking nonsense and joking along the way---at least I am, and I am sure Bram has spent enough time in contact with western culture---maybe Aussie, maybe British---to understand the way this brand of humour works.

My 13th December post was serious, but I was then wearing my "serious" hat.

If I were to wear my "dream-maker " hat I might want a keris made with isi and tuah that could guarantee me a 25 million dollar Lotto win---or perhaps the throne of a small kingdom.

Yep---this would be my sort of keris:- handsome is as handsome does.

One of my great faults is that I cannot stay too serious for too long, particularly with a subject as light-hearted as the one that is the basis for this thread.

Michel · 22nd December 2008, 10:11 PM

Thanks Alan,
I love humour, but as you know English is not my mother tongue and I recognize that sometime I do not understand the jokes that are made, in particular when using local slang. (US, Aussie; British). But I guess I am not the only one, Indonesian, Pilipino and other German, or Dutch must suffer from the same handicap. I admit that in your discussion with Bram, I was lost: the mix of Indonesian / Javanese and English is difficult in itself, if with that you talk at the secondary level (as we say in French) you loose some readers !

Rick, thank you at least I feel supported by one fellow forumnite and understood by Alan ( this is very important for me as Alan has for me a sort of aura irradiating with knowledge concerning the keris !)

Take care
Michel

Rick · 22nd December 2008, 09:53 PM

Very well put Michel .
I have refrained from commenting for many of these very same reasons .

David · 22nd December 2008, 10:41 PM

Again Michel, i must apologize. I think perhaps you are taking this "game" far too seriously. As Alan has pointed out, and i so inadequately attempted too, there are many ways to play this game and there aren't really too many fast rules. You don't need to be an artist to play and you can certainly use examples of keris that you have seen in order to determine what it is that you personally would like your keris to be.
I have certainly not mastered the "rules" of keris and i am sure that it is not a necessary prerequisite for this game.
I have not chimed in with my own person vision yet as i am still working that out. I think that i would like it to be of a Balinese style with a fairly full set of ricikan. I would like it to be 11 luk, not because of any Indonesian reference point, but because the number has it's own person significance for me. I would like the pamor to be meteorite because i like the significance of the mixture of "sky" metal with "earth" metal. I am still undecided on the pamor, but i much agree with you about the keris you posted, something percise and elegant, but not too flashy.
I am still working out the dress as well. Here also i would like something strong and elegant, but not overtly flashy. No gold for instance, but certainly silver. I think i would like the hilt to be a nice dark ebony with silver trimmings. Perhaps a very well carved kocet-kocet.
AS you say Michel, keep dreaming.

Greybeard · 15th June 2009, 09:15 AM

Hello

My dream keris would have to be a simple one, well made and of good material. It would have to be a 13 luk keris (Sengkelat or Parungsari; luk rengkol, maybe Pengging style), harmonious shape all over, well executed ricikan; pamor beras wutah. Simple, good quality dress; planar hilt, gayaman style sheat with plain brass pendok, nothing fancy.

Regards,

Heinz

18th December 2008, 10:17 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Dream Kris Well David and Alan, I understand your point of view, but do not share it. You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona? In dreams "miracle occures"! Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it. But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced. So please let me dream of my beautiful keris ! Michel

22nd December 2008, 09:26 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Can we disagree on a dream ? Thank you David, To have taken so much time and effort to explain the rules of this little game. Now, if one cannot abide to the rules, one should not play at all ! So I should not have played ! Why ? Because there is no way I could play by the rules, of figuring out a keris that would be my dream keris. I am not an artist who can create from nothing an object, which will be an art piece. I need example, something I can base my ideas on and develop from there with sets of rules. If I do not know the rules, I will be in trouble developing anything. Mastering the rules of the keris, is something that Alan and may be you, have done but not me. Alan having learned and worked many years under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijaya is probably capable of describing a keris that would suite him. He has done it in his December 13 description but with all respect for Alan description, I cannot see his keris, I cannot visualise his description. Ferrylaki did the same, I cannot see his dream keris. Kiai Carita did the same, quite precisely, but still I cannot see what he dreams of. Do I care about the origin of the nickel, if it is meteorite or from a bicycle ? Absolutely not ! The pamor, yes I do love the example I have shown, neat, precise, discreet, not flashy but elegant. Doest it mean, that this example is “THE Kris” for me ? No, it is the one that I have seen, that pleases me most. Does it mean it is the one that would best fit my Personality? I do not care, this aspect of the keris culture goes far beyond my understanding and ability to admit a reciprocal influence between the keris and the personality. I summary Davis, a far too long message for a game I should not have done ! If you can play by these rules, fine with me, but I am afraid I will not be able to know your dream keris! But keep dreaming ! Regards Michel

22nd December 2008, 10:11 PM	#7
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Humor and keris Thanks Alan, I love humour, but as you know English is not my mother tongue and I recognize that sometime I do not understand the jokes that are made, in particular when using local slang. (US, Aussie; British). But I guess I am not the only one, Indonesian, Pilipino and other German, or Dutch must suffer from the same handicap. I admit that in your discussion with Bram, I was lost: the mix of Indonesian / Javanese and English is difficult in itself, if with that you talk at the secondary level (as we say in French) you loose some readers ! Rick, thank you at least I feel supported by one fellow forumnite and understood by Alan ( this is very important for me as Alan has for me a sort of aura irradiating with knowledge concerning the keris !) Take care Michel

15th June 2009, 09:15 AM	#10
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	My dream keris Hello My dream keris would have to be a simple one, well made and of good material. It would have to be a 13 luk keris (Sengkelat or Parungsari; luk rengkol, maybe Pengging style), harmonious shape all over, well executed ricikan; pamor beras wutah. Simple, good quality dress; planar hilt, gayaman style sheat with plain brass pendok, nothing fancy. Regards, Heinz

18th December 2008, 08:37 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Michel and Marco (and others presenting already existing keris), as has been pointed out, the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?

22nd December 2008, 09:51 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Michel, as far as I'm concerned you played the game OK. You like the keris you posted a pic of. OK, you just give this pic to somebody who understands a bit more than you do, and tell them to get it duplicated. This can be done. For you, its a visual thing, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Fair enough. For me, this game is just that:- a game. Bram and I have been making exchanges that are completely specious. We both know we are talking nonsense and joking along the way---at least I am, and I am sure Bram has spent enough time in contact with western culture---maybe Aussie, maybe British---to understand the way this brand of humour works. My 13th December post was serious, but I was then wearing my "serious" hat. If I were to wear my "dream-maker " hat I might want a keris made with isi and tuah that could guarantee me a 25 million dollar Lotto win---or perhaps the throne of a small kingdom. Yep---this would be my sort of keris:- handsome is as handsome does. One of my great faults is that I cannot stay too serious for too long, particularly with a subject as light-hearted as the one that is the basis for this thread.

22nd December 2008, 09:53 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Very well put Michel . I have refrained from commenting for many of these very same reasons .

22nd December 2008, 10:41 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Again Michel, i must apologize. I think perhaps you are taking this "game" far too seriously. As Alan has pointed out, and i so inadequately attempted too, there are many ways to play this game and there aren't really too many fast rules. You don't need to be an artist to play and you can certainly use examples of keris that you have seen in order to determine what it is that you personally would like your keris to be. I have certainly not mastered the "rules" of keris and i am sure that it is not a necessary prerequisite for this game. I have not chimed in with my own person vision yet as i am still working that out. I think that i would like it to be of a Balinese style with a fairly full set of ricikan. I would like it to be 11 luk, not because of any Indonesian reference point, but because the number has it's own person significance for me. I would like the pamor to be meteorite because i like the significance of the mixture of "sky" metal with "earth" metal. I am still undecided on the pamor, but i much agree with you about the keris you posted, something percise and elegant, but not too flashy. I am still working out the dress as well. Here also i would like something strong and elegant, but not overtly flashy. No gold for instance, but certainly silver. I think i would like the hilt to be a nice dark ebony with silver trimmings. Perhaps a very well carved kocet-kocet. AS you say Michel, keep dreaming.