If one would be made for you how would it be?

Jussi M. · 16th December 2008, 06:43 PM

Lemmy,

I think you need to start taking orders soon!

J

Michel · 16th December 2008, 09:49 PM

I am lucky ! my dream keris exist :
A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta.
Page 161 of court art of Indonesia
A beauty !

Michel

Marcokeris · 18th December 2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

I am lucky ! my dream keris exist :
A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta.
Page 161 of court art of Indonesia
A beauty !

Michel

I totally agree with you.

This is the best keris, sarong, hit i never seen

For my taste an absolute masterpiece .

David · 18th December 2008, 08:37 PM

Well Michel and Marco (and others presenting already existing keris), as has been pointed out, the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true.

So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?

Michel · 18th December 2008, 10:17 PM

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

David · 22nd December 2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

Forgive me Michel, i am not trying to take away your "dream keris". I am merely pointing out that that was not the point of this particular exercise. So what you are saying then is that if you could have a keris made from scratch that it would look exactly like this one right down to the same dhapur, pamor and dress? That's OK of course. But what about details that you possibly don't know about this pre-existing masterpiece? What kind of pamor material would you use? Meteorite? Where would you source the iron from? An intensive knowledge of keris culture isn't really necessary for this exercise because the keris could be made to suit your own needs and culture. Alan, for instance, who obviously has a better understanding of keris culture than most, is putting forth a dhapur, pamor and dress that is both culturally and environmentally based on things Australian.
Michel, when the keris you have posted was made for it's original owner choices of pamor and dhapur were made based on the status, needs and personality of that original owner. I believe what Jussi was trying to establish was how we would go about making those choices for ourselves and possibly why. It's not really a matter of accumulating the most beautiful parts of all the best keris we have seen. It's about what you feel would be appropriate for you.

Michel · 22nd December 2008, 09:26 PM

Thank you David,
To have taken so much time and effort to explain the rules of this little game.
Now, if one cannot abide to the rules, one should not play at all !
So I should not have played ! Why ?
Because there is no way I could play by the rules, of figuring out a keris that would be my dream keris. I am not an artist who can create from nothing an object, which will be an art piece. I need example, something I can base my ideas on and develop from there with sets of rules. If I do not know the rules, I will be in trouble developing anything.
Mastering the rules of the keris, is something that Alan and may be you, have done but not me. Alan having learned and worked many years under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijaya is probably capable of describing a keris that would suite him. He has done it in his December 13 description but with all respect for Alan description, I cannot see his keris, I cannot visualise his description. Ferrylaki did the same, I cannot see his dream keris.
Kiai Carita did the same, quite precisely, but still I cannot see what he dreams of.
Do I care about the origin of the nickel, if it is meteorite or from a bicycle ? Absolutely not !
The pamor, yes I do love the example I have shown, neat, precise, discreet, not flashy but elegant.
Doest it mean, that this example is “THE Kris” for me ? No, it is the one that I have seen, that pleases me most.
Does it mean it is the one that would best fit my Personality? I do not care, this aspect of the keris culture goes far beyond my understanding and ability to admit a reciprocal influence between the keris and the personality.
I summary Davis, a far too long message for a game I should not have done !
If you can play by these rules, fine with me, but I am afraid I will not be able to know your dream keris! But keep dreaming !
Regards
Michel

16th December 2008, 09:49 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Dream Kris I am lucky ! my dream keris exist : A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta. Page 161 of court art of Indonesia A beauty ! Michel Attached Images

18th December 2008, 10:17 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Dream Kris Well David and Alan, I understand your point of view, but do not share it. You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona? In dreams "miracle occures"! Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it. But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced. So please let me dream of my beautiful keris ! Michel

22nd December 2008, 09:26 PM	#7
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Can we disagree on a dream ? Thank you David, To have taken so much time and effort to explain the rules of this little game. Now, if one cannot abide to the rules, one should not play at all ! So I should not have played ! Why ? Because there is no way I could play by the rules, of figuring out a keris that would be my dream keris. I am not an artist who can create from nothing an object, which will be an art piece. I need example, something I can base my ideas on and develop from there with sets of rules. If I do not know the rules, I will be in trouble developing anything. Mastering the rules of the keris, is something that Alan and may be you, have done but not me. Alan having learned and worked many years under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijaya is probably capable of describing a keris that would suite him. He has done it in his December 13 description but with all respect for Alan description, I cannot see his keris, I cannot visualise his description. Ferrylaki did the same, I cannot see his dream keris. Kiai Carita did the same, quite precisely, but still I cannot see what he dreams of. Do I care about the origin of the nickel, if it is meteorite or from a bicycle ? Absolutely not ! The pamor, yes I do love the example I have shown, neat, precise, discreet, not flashy but elegant. Doest it mean, that this example is “THE Kris” for me ? No, it is the one that I have seen, that pleases me most. Does it mean it is the one that would best fit my Personality? I do not care, this aspect of the keris culture goes far beyond my understanding and ability to admit a reciprocal influence between the keris and the personality. I summary Davis, a far too long message for a game I should not have done ! If you can play by these rules, fine with me, but I am afraid I will not be able to know your dream keris! But keep dreaming ! Regards Michel

16th December 2008, 06:43 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Lemmy, I think you need to start taking orders soon! J

18th December 2008, 08:37 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Michel and Marco (and others presenting already existing keris), as has been pointed out, the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?