Kachin / Shan Dha

Emanuel · 6th December 2008, 07:56 PM

Here is a simple little dha. Shan or kachin burmese I guess. I like the tip and its curvature.

The blade has a 1cm spine at the handle, tapering to 2mm at the tip. Handle and the scabbard - which does not look original to the dha - need new rattan rings. i have looked over the old tutorial threads and I'll try to make new rings.

Thoughts on this dha?

Emanuel

aiontay · 7th December 2008, 12:52 AM

The blade looks like a Kachin style blade, but I don't think the scabbard is original as you note. The scabbard would more likely be a half scabbard, with the back portion closest to the body open, or a more rounded scabbard.

fearn · 7th December 2008, 01:30 AM

Where's Mark when we need him?

Anyway, I'd guess it's a Thai dha/daarb. They occasionally have the square tip as seen on yours. The mounting is more distinctive, and it's similar to one I have.

Best,

F

RhysMichael · 7th December 2008, 03:23 AM

I'd agree this could be a thai darb with Hua Bua Tad, or Bruman from the kachin hils. While this may not be the original scabbard I believe it is in the same style as the original But Mark, Andrew and Ian will know more. Since it widens as much as it does towards the tip I'll bet its the latter.

aiontay · 7th December 2008, 03:43 AM

I bought a nhtu with a blade that widens towards like this in the market at Maymyo several years back. I'm not sure if the blade was made by a Kachin, Shan, or Burmese smith, but there definitely Kachins living in the area. Of course, I've seen square tipped blades like that in Northern Thailand as well, ad the handle doesn't look like a lot of the ones I've seen in Burma, but the most of the ones I've seen are work blades.

Emanuel · 7th December 2008, 06:05 AM

Thanks for the replies!

The tip is actually concave, more like Hua Tat Khong I guess. I've added a few more pictures.

Emanuel

PUFF · 8th December 2008, 07:24 AM

Near its hilt, is that a smith stamp or just a photo artifact?

Emanuel · 8th December 2008, 05:01 PM

Hi Puff, you're referring to the circular stamped marks seen on some (newer?) Thai darb right?
What you see in the picture is a small irreguler forging flaw. I will post clear pics of it later.

Mark · 11th December 2008, 09:29 PM

I agree with fearn & JT that this is a Shan/Tai Yuan daab. A Kachin nhtu would have a nearly straight blade, and a shorter handle. The scabbard is Shan in style, but as others have pointed out, is very likely not original to the blade.

aiontay · 12th December 2008, 05:18 AM

I just went and got my nhtu, a personal gift from a Kachi friend from Myitkyina, and the blade configuration looks pretty similar to the one pictured. Sorry I don't have a digital camera, or I'd post a picture of it. I'm not saying it is definitely Kachin, but I sure wouldn't rule it out. Unless you know exactly where it came from I suspect it would be hard to pin down exactly where it came from beyond mainland SE Asia.

Emanuel · 12th December 2008, 05:31 AM

Thanks for the confirmation Mark. I've seen two more of these on ebay recently and Michel has posted a similar one. Can you think of any reason why these are popping up? Are they just common?

Mark · 12th December 2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

I just went and got my nhtu, a personal gift from a Kachi friend from Myitkyina, and the blade configuration looks pretty similar to the one pictured. Sorry I don't have a digital camera, or I'd post a picture of it. I'm not saying it is definitely Kachin, but I sure wouldn't rule it out. Unless you know exactly where it came from I suspect it would be hard to pin down exactly where it came from beyond mainland SE Asia.

It is very hard to define an 'ethnic' origin for swords in continental SEA, as people use whatever is available, or whatever suits their personal fancy. Thus, you see Shan bearing Bama-style dha, Bama with Kachin, Kachin with Shan, etc., etc. The lines are especially blurred between the Kachin and the Shan. So, it is indeed impossible to say whether this dha was owned or made for a Kachin versus a Shan. I am only saying that it follows the Shan style in having a more curved blade and a longer handle. At the least, the concave tip shows Kachin influence and the blade may well be Duleng, who are well-known for their sword-smithing expertise and whose blades were traded all over the northern areas of continental SEA. C.f., Leach, Political Systems of Highland Burma, pp. 233 & 251 (1954).

Egerton describes the "sword dao" as a very heavy weapon, which this does not seem to be, another reason why I put it in the "Shan" column stylistically: "This is a long pointless sword, set in a wooden or ebony handle; it is very heavy, and a blow of almost incredible power can be given by one of these weapons." Egerton, An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms, p. 88 (1880) [note: Edgerton later defines a different type of sword as a "cutlass" with a curved blade, by which I interpret his use of the word "sword" to mean a more-or-less straight blade]. I have linked in below photos of a few swords that fit Egerton's description nicely.

Mark · 12th December 2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Thanks for the confirmation Mark. I've seen two more of these on ebay recently and Michel has posted a similar one. Can you think of any reason why these are popping up? Are they just common?

No, I can't think of a reason. Things go in cycles, and perhaps someone is selling their collection or just came back from a collecting trip.

aiontay · 13th December 2008, 02:23 AM

Mark,
I would agree the handle doesn't look like a Kachin style handle and would be more in line with a Shan or Northern Thai style. If I was a betting man I'd say it isn't a Kachin sword. I'm just saying I don't think the blade style differences, ie straight vs curved for example, really provides much definitive information based on my admittedly limited observations of Kachin swords owned by Kachins. Well, maybe they're not that limited since my thesis is about the Kachins (based on field research in Thailand and Burma). I should also note that while Leach wrote a great book, I know the Kachins who have read it take issue with a few things, and I'd say his interpretation of Kachin/Shan interactions needs to be treated with some caution.

6th December 2008, 07:56 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Kachin / Shan Dha Here is a simple little dha. Shan or kachin burmese I guess. I like the tip and its curvature. The blade has a 1cm spine at the handle, tapering to 2mm at the tip. Handle and the scabbard - which does not look original to the dha - need new rattan rings. i have looked over the old tutorial threads and I'll try to make new rings. Thoughts on this dha? Emanuel Attached Images

7th December 2008, 03:23 AM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I'd agree this could be a thai darb with Hua Bua Tad, or Bruman from the kachin hils. While this may not be the original scabbard I believe it is in the same style as the original But Mark, Andrew and Ian will know more. Since it widens as much as it does towards the tip I'll bet its the latter. Last edited by RhysMichael; 7th December 2008 at 04:49 AM.

7th December 2008, 06:05 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the replies! The tip is actually concave, more like Hua Tat Khong I guess. I've added a few more pictures. Emanuel Attached Images

7th December 2008, 12:52 AM	#2
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The blade looks like a Kachin style blade, but I don't think the scabbard is original as you note. The scabbard would more likely be a half scabbard, with the back portion closest to the body open, or a more rounded scabbard.

7th December 2008, 01:30 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Where's Mark when we need him? Anyway, I'd guess it's a Thai dha/daarb. They occasionally have the square tip as seen on yours. The mounting is more distinctive, and it's similar to one I have. Best, F

7th December 2008, 03:43 AM	#5
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I bought a nhtu with a blade that widens towards like this in the market at Maymyo several years back. I'm not sure if the blade was made by a Kachin, Shan, or Burmese smith, but there definitely Kachins living in the area. Of course, I've seen square tipped blades like that in Northern Thailand as well, ad the handle doesn't look like a lot of the ones I've seen in Burma, but the most of the ones I've seen are work blades.

8th December 2008, 07:24 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Near its hilt, is that a smith stamp or just a photo artifact?

8th December 2008, 05:01 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Puff, you're referring to the circular stamped marks seen on some (newer?) Thai darb right? What you see in the picture is a small irreguler forging flaw. I will post clear pics of it later.

11th December 2008, 09:29 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I agree with fearn & JT that this is a Shan/Tai Yuan daab. A Kachin nhtu would have a nearly straight blade, and a shorter handle. The scabbard is Shan in style, but as others have pointed out, is very likely not original to the blade.

12th December 2008, 05:18 AM	#10
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I just went and got my nhtu, a personal gift from a Kachi friend from Myitkyina, and the blade configuration looks pretty similar to the one pictured. Sorry I don't have a digital camera, or I'd post a picture of it. I'm not saying it is definitely Kachin, but I sure wouldn't rule it out. Unless you know exactly where it came from I suspect it would be hard to pin down exactly where it came from beyond mainland SE Asia.

12th December 2008, 05:31 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the confirmation Mark. I've seen two more of these on ebay recently and Michel has posted a similar one. Can you think of any reason why these are popping up? Are they just common?

13th December 2008, 02:23 AM	#14
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Mark, I would agree the handle doesn't look like a Kachin style handle and would be more in line with a Shan or Northern Thai style. If I was a betting man I'd say it isn't a Kachin sword. I'm just saying I don't think the blade style differences, ie straight vs curved for example, really provides much definitive information based on my admittedly limited observations of Kachin swords owned by Kachins. Well, maybe they're not that limited since my thesis is about the Kachins (based on field research in Thailand and Burma). I should also note that while Leach wrote a great book, I know the Kachins who have read it take issue with a few things, and I'd say his interpretation of Kachin/Shan interactions needs to be treated with some caution.