Visayan Weapons Study

Ian · 11th December 2004, 05:03 PM

on eBay, but not sure what it is called: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3945057787

What do you think? Certainly seems to have some age -- early 20th C. maybe. The scabbard reminds me of those on talibon from Leyte. The blade is definitely slimmer than most "talibon" and rather than being a chopper seems to be more designed for stabbing. Could this be an example of the Leyte sansibar that was recently described here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3945057787?

I will send more detailed pictures when I receive the piece.

Ian.

LabanTayo · 11th December 2004, 09:54 PM

ian,
to me, its just a short talibon. it doesnt have the blade profile of a sansibar. the handle also is not in line with the blade. i have several pieces that i am getting from those guys, and that piece was one of them, but not anymore.

i have an actual garab/talibon and an interesting tenegre coming.
i'll post pics to when i get them.

ruel, ian, federico, marc, wilked,
thanks for the input and advice,
we will be taking all of it in to consideration when we finally start this project.

we have learned alot so far........

Ian · 12th December 2004, 02:18 PM

I have not seen an older sansibar, just the very recent examples referred to on the web site linked to above. Do you have an older example to show us?

Would you agree that the scabbard on the knife I just acquired can be attributed to Leyte? I have a couple of WWII talibon that are very similar and have "Leyte" marked on them.

Ian.

LabanTayo · 12th December 2004, 02:37 PM

ian,
i know of an old sansibar for sale, but i cant get the guy to come off his extremly inflated price. i do not know if it would be right to post a pic of it since i do not own it.
zel posted a pic of an old sansibar in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39
its with 2 tenegre's and a panabas.

the scabbard of your new toy looks to be from Leyte / Samar, as we all have Talibons with that same scabbard.

ibeam · 12th December 2004, 04:51 PM

Hello Zel and Shelley,

.

In late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite’s video “Espada y Daga” in the opening credits, he is seen wielding a sword which I believe is a Sanzibar Sword.??? Sorry if the pics are a bit blurry.

Also in the book “Filipino Martial Culture” by Mark Wiley, there is also an action photo of Punong Guro Sulite with the sword doing one of his Laban Laro drills.

I hope this help. I really wish you guys the best on your research on these swords. Great information that will be a very much anticipated.

Ian · 13th December 2004, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Recent item on eBay, but not sure what it is called: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3945057787

Zel and Shelley: I have just received a reply from the seller as to the name of this particular knife. He says that it is known locally as a "Pinote."

Ian.

tom hyle · 25th December 2004, 07:26 PM

And we know that word as pinuti, though I've more often seen it applied to as sansibar type sword than to a talibon/garab. What is the division being drawn as to pulahan garab vs talibon? What are the structural, cultural, geographical, or historical bases of this division? It may be a somewhat artificial one, and in any event seems to me to cry out for defining; I don't understand it. Is the fully lobed pommel important in some way I'm unaware of? Is there an attempt afoot to divide weapon from tool? It seems to me that the thumb-rest is an old/obsolete feature, but are other equally old blades without it? I'm unsure. Some style feature variations I've found that seem meaningful: overall wedge-section with secondary chisel-bevel at edge vs. flat with chisel bevel vs. "high shinogi" (thicker to front edge) with chisel bevel; orientation of blade in hilt is with the flat side parralel to fingers? or is the (wedge section) blade centrally oriented? or is the spine jigged "off" to the flat way extra far to try to line up the cutting edge? Narrow tip vs. wide tip; straight tip vs. curved tip; raised edges on ricassoe; wide tang vs. nail-like (dha-like) tang; differentially hardened vs. scarf-welded edges; facetted vs. flat-faced vs. eliptical scabbard......
Talibon hilt widens toward the blade, to protect your hand; tenegre hilt narrows toward the blade, and relies on the ricassoe or a guard to protect the hand.
Some thoughts.......

VANDOO · 25th December 2004, 10:09 PM

LOTS OF GOOD ADVICE IN PREVIOUS POSTS

I CAN'T ADD MUCH BUT I WOULD DECIDE WHICH ISLANDS AND WHICH WEAPONS I WAS INTERESTED IN. THEN FIND SOME GOOD OLD EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE (PERHAPS IN MUSEUMS OR BOOKS). USE THESE EXAMPLES TO ESTABLISH A COMPARATIVE BASE LINE AND THEN YOU CAN TRY AND GROUP WEAPON TYPES WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. THERE WILL BE SOME VARIATION IN FORMS WITHIN EACH TYPE AND MANY DIFFERENT REGIONAL NAMES AND NO DOUBT A FEW MAVRICKS THAT DON'T FIT WELL ANYWHERE.
IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO ASK ADVICE OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS AND DONE SIMULAR RESEARCH YOU MIGHT GAIN VALUABLE CONTACTS THERE. MR CATO AND MR ZONNEVELD COME TO MIND HERE. GOOD LUCK ON A INTERESTING PROJECT.

KuKulzA28 · 8th May 2009, 07:46 AM

is this still going on?

ThePepperSkull · 30th November 2010, 10:26 AM

I am also curious about this. What ever happened to LabanTayo and Zelbone's work?

I have seen some of their youtube vids of cutting practice using modern made blades, a lot of them visayan and often times associated with specific schools (I.E. a Cebuano pinuti design which is stated to most liekly be used by the Doce Pares society, or the ginunting/talibong designs from the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Camp.), as well as pictures of bagobo, T'boli, and mandaya bolos that Zel posted on other forums.

Seems to have just stopped posting though. I would be very interested to see any new developments on their part.

Dimasalang · 1st December 2010, 12:09 AM

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I actually wanted to ask the same question.

More research needs to be done in this area before it is too late. The following of Visayan weapons seems to be snowballing now. I'd hate to see a lot of 'false' history being spread due to the fast growing popularity. Obviously with no clear cut history and research, a lot of Filipinos will be quick to tell their own made up stories/versions on how certain weapons came about(I see this a lot now in FMA).

I hope to hear more from Lorenz and Nacho as well.

Nonoy Tan · 1st December 2010, 11:22 AM

Some time ago, migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and I met each other in this forum and then decided to hold informal meetings in Manila, as we are all residents of the Philippines. Our latest meeting was held at the premises of the National Museum of the Philippines. Since the time we organized ourselves, we have been sharing collections, and collaborating to put together factual information on Philippine weaponry. Together we hope to share these information to the rest of the community in the future, as some research projects are on-going.

David · 1st December 2010, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Some time ago, migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and I met each other in this forum and then decided to hold informal meetings in Manila, as we are all residents of the Philippines. Our latest meeting was held at the premises of the National Museum of the Philippines. Since the time we organized ourselves, we have been sharing collections, and collaborating to put together factual information on Philippine weaponry. Together we hope to share these information to the rest of the community in the future, as some research projects are on-going.

This is great to hear. I really look forward to seeing your research develop!

11th December 2004, 05:03 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Recent acquisition ... on eBay, but not sure what it is called: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3945057787 What do you think? Certainly seems to have some age -- early 20th C. maybe. The scabbard reminds me of those on talibon from Leyte. The blade is definitely slimmer than most "talibon" and rather than being a chopper seems to be more designed for stabbing. Could this be an example of the Leyte sansibar that was recently described here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3945057787? I will send more detailed pictures when I receive the piece. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 11th December 2004 at 05:18 PM.

12th December 2004, 02:18 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Thanks Shelley I have not seen an older sansibar, just the very recent examples referred to on the web site linked to above. Do you have an older example to show us? Would you agree that the scabbard on the knife I just acquired can be attributed to Leyte? I have a couple of WWII talibon that are very similar and have "Leyte" marked on them. Ian.

12th December 2004, 02:37 PM	#4
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	ian, i know of an old sansibar for sale, but i cant get the guy to come off his extremly inflated price. i do not know if it would be right to post a pic of it since i do not own it. zel posted a pic of an old sansibar in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39 its with 2 tenegre's and a panabas. the scabbard of your new toy looks to be from Leyte / Samar, as we all have Talibons with that same scabbard. Last edited by LabanTayo; 12th December 2004 at 02:49 PM.

12th December 2004, 04:51 PM	#5
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	Hello Zel and Shelley, . In late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite’s video “Espada y Daga” in the opening credits, he is seen wielding a sword which I believe is a Sanzibar Sword.??? Sorry if the pics are a bit blurry. Also in the book “Filipino Martial Culture” by Mark Wiley, there is also an action photo of Punong Guro Sulite with the sword doing one of his Laban Laro drills. I hope this help. I really wish you guys the best on your research on these swords. Great information that will be a very much anticipated. Attached Images

25th December 2004, 07:26 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	And we know that word as pinuti, though I've more often seen it applied to as sansibar type sword than to a talibon/garab. What is the division being drawn as to pulahan garab vs talibon? What are the structural, cultural, geographical, or historical bases of this division? It may be a somewhat artificial one, and in any event seems to me to cry out for defining; I don't understand it. Is the fully lobed pommel important in some way I'm unaware of? Is there an attempt afoot to divide weapon from tool? It seems to me that the thumb-rest is an old/obsolete feature, but are other equally old blades without it? I'm unsure. Some style feature variations I've found that seem meaningful: overall wedge-section with secondary chisel-bevel at edge vs. flat with chisel bevel vs. "high shinogi" (thicker to front edge) with chisel bevel; orientation of blade in hilt is with the flat side parralel to fingers? or is the (wedge section) blade centrally oriented? or is the spine jigged "off" to the flat way extra far to try to line up the cutting edge? Narrow tip vs. wide tip; straight tip vs. curved tip; raised edges on ricassoe; wide tang vs. nail-like (dha-like) tang; differentially hardened vs. scarf-welded edges; facetted vs. flat-faced vs. eliptical scabbard...... Talibon hilt widens toward the blade, to protect your hand; tenegre hilt narrows toward the blade, and relies on the ricassoe or a guard to protect the hand. Some thoughts....... Last edited by tom hyle; 25th December 2004 at 07:29 PM. Reason: adding

11th December 2004, 09:54 PM	#2
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	ian, to me, its just a short talibon. it doesnt have the blade profile of a sansibar. the handle also is not in line with the blade. i have several pieces that i am getting from those guys, and that piece was one of them, but not anymore. i have an actual garab/talibon and an interesting tenegre coming. i'll post pics to when i get them. ruel, ian, federico, marc, wilked, thanks for the input and advice, we will be taking all of it in to consideration when we finally start this project. we have learned alot so far........

25th December 2004, 10:09 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LOTS OF GOOD ADVICE IN PREVIOUS POSTS I CAN'T ADD MUCH BUT I WOULD DECIDE WHICH ISLANDS AND WHICH WEAPONS I WAS INTERESTED IN. THEN FIND SOME GOOD OLD EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE (PERHAPS IN MUSEUMS OR BOOKS). USE THESE EXAMPLES TO ESTABLISH A COMPARATIVE BASE LINE AND THEN YOU CAN TRY AND GROUP WEAPON TYPES WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. THERE WILL BE SOME VARIATION IN FORMS WITHIN EACH TYPE AND MANY DIFFERENT REGIONAL NAMES AND NO DOUBT A FEW MAVRICKS THAT DON'T FIT WELL ANYWHERE. IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO ASK ADVICE OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS AND DONE SIMULAR RESEARCH YOU MIGHT GAIN VALUABLE CONTACTS THERE. MR CATO AND MR ZONNEVELD COME TO MIND HERE. GOOD LUCK ON A INTERESTING PROJECT.

8th May 2009, 07:46 AM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	is this still going on?

30th November 2010, 10:26 AM	#10
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I am also curious about this. What ever happened to LabanTayo and Zelbone's work? I have seen some of their youtube vids of cutting practice using modern made blades, a lot of them visayan and often times associated with specific schools (I.E. a Cebuano pinuti design which is stated to most liekly be used by the Doce Pares society, or the ginunting/talibong designs from the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Camp.), as well as pictures of bagobo, T'boli, and mandaya bolos that Zel posted on other forums. Seems to have just stopped posting though. I would be very interested to see any new developments on their part. Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 30th November 2010 at 10:14 PM.

1st December 2010, 12:09 AM	#11
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I actually wanted to ask the same question. More research needs to be done in this area before it is too late. The following of Visayan weapons seems to be snowballing now. I'd hate to see a lot of 'false' history being spread due to the fast growing popularity. Obviously with no clear cut history and research, a lot of Filipinos will be quick to tell their own made up stories/versions on how certain weapons came about(I see this a lot now in FMA). I hope to hear more from Lorenz and Nacho as well.

1st December 2010, 11:22 AM	#12
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Some time ago, migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and I met each other in this forum and then decided to hold informal meetings in Manila, as we are all residents of the Philippines. Our latest meeting was held at the premises of the National Museum of the Philippines. Since the time we organized ourselves, we have been sharing collections, and collaborating to put together factual information on Philippine weaponry. Together we hope to share these information to the rest of the community in the future, as some research projects are on-going.