19th century fencing foils

William V. · 2nd December 2008, 11:01 PM

Always a pleasure

As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking).

@broadaxe
Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging.
Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date.
And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee?
Thanks in advance.

William

broadaxe · 2nd December 2008, 11:34 PM

Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire.
I will try to look up for examples.

By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318

Chris Evans · 3rd December 2008, 05:16 AM

Hi William,

Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece.

Cheers
Chris

William V. · 3rd December 2008, 12:14 PM

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking

(perhaps someone elso can read it)

Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far...

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers

it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

Chris Evans · 3rd December 2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers

My pleasure!

Quote:

t is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

Please do.

Cheers
Chris

William V. · 3rd December 2008, 08:10 PM

Your wish is my command

I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine.
The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable.

If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know.

Greetz

William

Chris Evans · 3rd December 2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

Your wish is my command

Nice one!

Cheers
Chris

William V. · 4th December 2008, 04:46 PM

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare....

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.

William

broadaxe · 8th December 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

William

William, of course not automatically; this was a process of develpment in the sport. The blade of your Souzy epee does have the deep & narrow milled canellure, but without the additional groove portals for the electric wire. I call this type an intermediate blade. As a point of interesting info, Souzy Paris closed its gates by WWII, so this epee must have been of their later days.

I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences:
1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram.
2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip.
3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point.
4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure.
5. Electric blade.

William V. · 9th December 2008, 07:19 AM

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons

Especially the BPR duelling epee

I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades?

All the best

William

broadaxe · 9th December 2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons

Especially the BPR duelling epee

Thanks!

I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?
I think I do,this has been verified by two authorities. Anyway, as you probably know, the epee construction for the last, say, 100 years, is that you can take it apart and rehilt it easily. The aluminum bowl guard can be original to the 1930's though. The thin thread grip looks period enough. I will re-check it anyhow.

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades? Not at all, with pleasure.

It will just take me some time as I'll be off line for a couple of days.

All the best

William

William V. · 9th December 2008, 11:18 PM

Honour to those who deserve it

Unfortunately I'm painfully aware that, especially with the introduction of the threaded tang, the weapons are possibly not "original" to one time, but may be assemblys of various "times". By the way, I do the same with my Gardere-handle (1950's) on a 2005 FIE tournament legal epee blade....

Thanks for the advice anyway.
By the way, it may be interesting to know that the weapon is not assembled correctly: The guard is placed for a left-handed fencer, while the grip is clearly for a right-handed.
To date the weapon correctly (if that is possible) it would be useful to find out more about "Trule, Waffen- und Fechtartikel". Problem is, that if you want to look into the official registration forms you have to pay for it, and the web is silent (MacDougalling doesn't help

). But the firm seems to have vanished very fast (or is very old) because even the oldest fencers here do not remember a company with that name.
Perhaps I should spend the money

Anyway, we are all waiting for the pictures of your weapons @ broadaxe

All the best

William

3rd December 2008, 12:14 PM	#4
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	@broadaxe Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ). I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken). Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking (perhaps someone elso can read it) Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far... @ Chris Thanks for the flowers it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture. William Attached Images

3rd December 2008, 08:10 PM	#6
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Your wish is my command I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine. The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable. If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know. Greetz William Attached Images Last edited by William V.; 4th December 2008 at 05:58 AM.

2nd December 2008, 11:01 PM	#1
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Always a pleasure As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking). @broadaxe Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging. Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date. And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee? Thanks in advance. William

2nd December 2008, 11:34 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time. The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire. I will try to look up for examples. By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318

3rd December 2008, 05:16 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi William, Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece. Cheers Chris

4th December 2008, 04:46 PM	#8
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge @katana: The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)... Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly): http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare.... So far for now. I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself. William

9th December 2008, 07:19 AM	#10
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons Especially the BPR duelling epee I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII? Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades? All the best William

9th December 2008, 11:18 PM	#12
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Honour to those who deserve it Unfortunately I'm painfully aware that, especially with the introduction of the threaded tang, the weapons are possibly not "original" to one time, but may be assemblys of various "times". By the way, I do the same with my Gardere-handle (1950's) on a 2005 FIE tournament legal epee blade.... Thanks for the advice anyway. By the way, it may be interesting to know that the weapon is not assembled correctly: The guard is placed for a left-handed fencer, while the grip is clearly for a right-handed. To date the weapon correctly (if that is possible) it would be useful to find out more about "Trule, Waffen- und Fechtartikel". Problem is, that if you want to look into the official registration forms you have to pay for it, and the web is silent (MacDougalling doesn't help ). But the firm seems to have vanished very fast (or is very old) because even the oldest fencers here do not remember a company with that name. Perhaps I should spend the money Anyway, we are all waiting for the pictures of your weapons @ broadaxe All the best William