Orientation of the grip of this keris

Battara · 19th November 2008, 05:37 PM

Alan, would the one you pictured be considered a chieftain's keris?

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2008, 07:43 PM

I do not know.

I had never heard of a "chieftain's keris" before I started to read posts to this forum.

Its an English language name, so I just don't know what it means.

I also do not know what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of the people who would have originally generated these keris.

I strongly suspect it is a Singapore or Malaysian collector classification, rather than a cultural classification.

Perhaps one of our brothers from that area could enlighten us as to origin and meaning of the term?

kulbuntet · 20th November 2008, 01:12 AM

at first to Allan again. Chieftain keris is as i see it know as a tribe elder or leader, head waroir. I heve read the same that those men had a keris with a large wranka fited for their status.

To Freddy, the missing of batik/hair or what ever, on the peksi as the bended peksi. Can be explained as it try to write before. Sulawesi bugis do twist off their hilt as a sight of good will. Like the sam custom as carrying a keris in the right hand an putting you left on your right wrist when shaking sombody's hand. Sulawesi bugis did not put their keris in a rack or stand when entering a hous or court.They just twist off the hilt, and the keris can not be used as a weapon but is stil with the owner.

I also found some pics in books showing the reversed hilt(Edward Frey/The Kris..pg67C/E, pg66E and pg68F bugis Sulawesi and Sumatra keris)(and David van Duren/The kris(dutch versoin)..pg89). I had a thought about what Allan said...using ropes..bugis/sulawesi..they were seamen the bugis. I tryed using the keris with reversed hilt, it can be used as a cutting/stabing weapon(cutting roppes?). The diffrence would be that it is more used as a short sword than as a dagger.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2008, 07:08 AM

Yes Michel, that's the obvious interpretation of "chieftain".

Don't get me wrong:- I understand the word itself, I just have no idea of why this keris type is called this name, I also have no idea of exactly what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of these societies.

If a Malay word were to be used to describe this type of keris, we would probably have a pretty good idea of exactly what was meant, and the relevant connotations, but "chieftain"?---sorry, I do not understand.

If it is true that the elites of some cultural group wore keris with a bigger than usual wrongko, can we identify the specific cultural group, persons permitted this style within the cultural group, location, time period, source of information,---etc, etc, etc? In other words:- what do we know and how do we know it?

Whenever we give an opinion on something, that opinion is usually based upon our experience. We might come to a particular conclusion after some years of observing various factors from various sources, and our experience can be of varying types, varying integrity, and varying durations. But when all is said and done, an opinion is just somebody's good guess. It could well be wrong. However, with this "chieftain" name tag, I see it recurring consistently, and I doubt that it is based on experience, but rather upon information from some source. The gap in my knowledge is that I do not know the source, and not knowing the source, I don't really understand what it means.

As for the reversed grip, as I have already stated, the ones I have handled with reversed grips were of the same type,and these grips were not easily removeable, both were firmly stuck in place with damar. Perhaps Freddy's keris grip was not stuck with damar, and perhaps its reversal was the result of some ill advised removal and replacement, but the fact remains that the blade type seems to fall within the same classification as my two that had reversed grips. I do most strongly believe that this grip reversal was a practice that was observed by some group of people at some time. Who, when, where, why, I cannot even guess.

sipakatuo · 20th November 2008, 01:20 PM

Freddy, we dont called it Keris in Sulawesi. We called it Tappi or Sele but I prefer Tappi. IMHO your Tappi has Bugis Characters such as Pangulu (Handle), Wanua (Sheath) and Kili kili (Ring/Mendak). It is true what Alan said, there are some Tappi which have reversed Pangulu. In term of Watting (Paksi), yes they are always bend but not quite as bend as yours and most of the Watting slightly twisted at the edge. As far as why the watting always glued/sealed very hard? it is a tradition or so called belief that the 'Tuah' of the Tappi stayed inside the Watting therefore you can always show the blade to someone but never show the Watting. The same with Badik, Alameng, and Salaga they are always sealed.

David · 20th November 2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

As far as why the watting always glued/sealed very hard?

I have always assumed that hilts were secured to the blades with damar when they were to be used for fighting to make sure that they do not become separated in the heat of battle.

sipakatuo · 20th November 2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have always assumed that hilts were secured to the blades with damar when they were to be used for fighting to make sure that they do not become separated in the heat of battle.

True indeed, apart from that there is also mystical factor. Thank you for adding.

19th November 2008, 05:37 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Alan, would the one you pictured be considered a chieftain's keris?

19th November 2008, 07:43 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I do not know. I had never heard of a "chieftain's keris" before I started to read posts to this forum. Its an English language name, so I just don't know what it means. I also do not know what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of the people who would have originally generated these keris. I strongly suspect it is a Singapore or Malaysian collector classification, rather than a cultural classification. Perhaps one of our brothers from that area could enlighten us as to origin and meaning of the term?

20th November 2008, 01:12 AM	#3
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	at first to Allan again. Chieftain keris is as i see it know as a tribe elder or leader, head waroir. I heve read the same that those men had a keris with a large wranka fited for their status. To Freddy, the missing of batik/hair or what ever, on the peksi as the bended peksi. Can be explained as it try to write before. Sulawesi bugis do twist off their hilt as a sight of good will. Like the sam custom as carrying a keris in the right hand an putting you left on your right wrist when shaking sombody's hand. Sulawesi bugis did not put their keris in a rack or stand when entering a hous or court.They just twist off the hilt, and the keris can not be used as a weapon but is stil with the owner. I also found some pics in books showing the reversed hilt(Edward Frey/The Kris..pg67C/E, pg66E and pg68F bugis Sulawesi and Sumatra keris)(and David van Duren/The kris(dutch versoin)..pg89). I had a thought about what Allan said...using ropes..bugis/sulawesi..they were seamen the bugis. I tryed using the keris with reversed hilt, it can be used as a cutting/stabing weapon(cutting roppes?). The diffrence would be that it is more used as a short sword than as a dagger. Regards

20th November 2008, 07:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Yes Michel, that's the obvious interpretation of "chieftain". Don't get me wrong:- I understand the word itself, I just have no idea of why this keris type is called this name, I also have no idea of exactly what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of these societies. If a Malay word were to be used to describe this type of keris, we would probably have a pretty good idea of exactly what was meant, and the relevant connotations, but "chieftain"?---sorry, I do not understand. If it is true that the elites of some cultural group wore keris with a bigger than usual wrongko, can we identify the specific cultural group, persons permitted this style within the cultural group, location, time period, source of information,---etc, etc, etc? In other words:- what do we know and how do we know it? Whenever we give an opinion on something, that opinion is usually based upon our experience. We might come to a particular conclusion after some years of observing various factors from various sources, and our experience can be of varying types, varying integrity, and varying durations. But when all is said and done, an opinion is just somebody's good guess. It could well be wrong. However, with this "chieftain" name tag, I see it recurring consistently, and I doubt that it is based on experience, but rather upon information from some source. The gap in my knowledge is that I do not know the source, and not knowing the source, I don't really understand what it means. As for the reversed grip, as I have already stated, the ones I have handled with reversed grips were of the same type,and these grips were not easily removeable, both were firmly stuck in place with damar. Perhaps Freddy's keris grip was not stuck with damar, and perhaps its reversal was the result of some ill advised removal and replacement, but the fact remains that the blade type seems to fall within the same classification as my two that had reversed grips. I do most strongly believe that this grip reversal was a practice that was observed by some group of people at some time. Who, when, where, why, I cannot even guess.

20th November 2008, 01:20 PM	#5
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	Freddy, we dont called it Keris in Sulawesi. We called it Tappi or Sele but I prefer Tappi. IMHO your Tappi has Bugis Characters such as Pangulu (Handle), Wanua (Sheath) and Kili kili (Ring/Mendak). It is true what Alan said, there are some Tappi which have reversed Pangulu. In term of Watting (Paksi), yes they are always bend but not quite as bend as yours and most of the Watting slightly twisted at the edge. As far as why the watting always glued/sealed very hard? it is a tradition or so called belief that the 'Tuah' of the Tappi stayed inside the Watting therefore you can always show the blade to someone but never show the Watting. The same with Badik, Alameng, and Salaga they are always sealed.