Ancient Spear Or Forgery?

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2005, 07:44 PM

Hello Drzzzzz. Looks like the real thing to me but alas only in decorative condition.It is really out of my field but may be late 17-late18 cent and known as a Partizan.Here are some pictures.Tim

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 02:42 AM

If it seems excessively heavy, especially in the thickness of the flanges, that may more point to a late 19th decorative piece; I think old partizans and spontoons were usually fairly light affairs; on the other hand, most I've seen were somewhat vestigial 18th century rank-marker military standards, or others similarly ceremonial, so say it was a 17th c. piece; a greater weight and solidity might be "right" for all I know. If it seems cast, it's likely 1850-1930. What about the decorative theme; the man or boy; I know there's not much detail left, but it seems like a "stock" image; perhaps a datable one?

fearn · 13th April 2005, 03:14 AM

Personally, I can't help wondering if it's a decorative piece made of cast iron. For what it's worth, I was thinking partizan as well.

Fearn

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 03:35 AM

The pictures take a while; I never saw the end of the socket before. It seems thicker than proper; is it flanged from being beaten upon? Is it folded-over to the in side? Or is it straight-up just that thick? Anyway, the socket, especially the inside, is where you'll either likely see casting lines, or a forging line where it was rolled up, and maybe a tanglike nub from the blade-base. I personally think I may see a casting line disapearing into that shadow. I, too, suspect a casting, late 19th/early 20th, and moreso with that thick socket end, but I'm not sure. How old is the break at the tip? it does not look sharpened? Is there crystalize "grain" visible? Ie pebbly surface? Is there delamination/layers visible here or anywhere?

Jens Nordlunde · 13th April 2005, 03:27 PM

For a partizan it looks more heavy than normally seen, so I agree that it is cast.

Jens

derek · 13th April 2005, 08:00 PM

Doesn't the socket seem a bit too short to be functional?

-d

wolviex · 13th April 2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Doesn't the socket seem a bit too short to be functional?

Even if it is too short, it doesn't matter because it is decorative not functional

Mark · 14th April 2005, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

If it seems excessively heavy, especially in the thickness of the flanges, that may more point to a late 19th decorative piece; I think old partizans and spontoons were usually fairly light affairs; on the other hand, most I've seen were somewhat vestigial 18th century rank-marker military standards, or others similarly ceremonial, so say it was a 17th c. piece; a greater weight and solidity might be "right" for all I know. If it seems cast, it's likely 1850-1930. What about the decorative theme; the man or boy; I know there's not much detail left, but it seems like a "stock" image; perhaps a datable one?

I was thinking a later ceremonial piece, as well. I have read somewhere that the partizan (and the halbard, too, I guess) survived for a long time as a prop in the pomp and circumstance of European noble's trains. Picture the Beefeaters, the Swiss Guard, or the [English] Queen's Life Guard. Well, the last one's don't carry pole-arms, but they do wear anachronistic cuirasses and burnished helmets. I would expect that this kind of thing became more decorative and less useful as a weapon as time went by.

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 04:35 AM

The uses are many, including those listed by Tom, while another common usage for similar items was/is as gate and wall fillials in large estates, with smaller, spear-like heads mounted on the bars themselves.....I've seen variuos polearm heads, both simulated and real, used as such in SE Asia, the US and in photographs from S. America as well and suspect similar may be found throughout Europe.
Cast iron "replicas" are often made locally for theatrical use as well, as I've known gentlemen who produce such in both Michigan and here in Florida as well.
Oh...and don't forget flagpole fillials, both on today's pieces and on regimental/company military flagpoles from the erly 1900's back to the revolutionary period here in the US, as well as for fraternal organizations that can cover a wide range of time periods.
With the apparenty flattened edges and heavy weight, I suspect that yours may well have been used in the latter fashion.
Mike

Andrew · 16th April 2005, 06:09 AM

I've linked this thead to MyArmoury. Perhaps someone over there can add to the discussion.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...?p=38715#38715

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 06:21 AM

Is it too late to say, "if you don't want it........."?**grin**
Obviously, I personally find it has a certain appeal
Mike

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 02:43 PM

Tim, good pics; thanks; I didn't see them before? I do think that if one examined the ones you picture one would find them much lighter than this piece.
I wouldn't say this piece is in decorative condition; quite the opposite, actually; it seems to have lost much of its appearance, but to be still quite solid (for cast iron, if that's what it is), and likely close to as useful as it ever was.
There's nothing short about the socket, unless it's not hollow its full length.
I do think it's a casting, mainly because of the seemingly excessive and impractical weight of various features, and if so, then it was, of course, made as a decorative/ceremonial/etc. piece. Dang English tourist spears

That's a joke.....................................

12th April 2005, 07:44 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Drzzzzz. Looks like the real thing to me but alas only in decorative condition.It is really out of my field but may be late 17-late18 cent and known as a Partizan.Here are some pictures.Tim Attached Images

13th April 2005, 02:42 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	If it seems excessively heavy, especially in the thickness of the flanges, that may more point to a late 19th decorative piece; I think old partizans and spontoons were usually fairly light affairs; on the other hand, most I've seen were somewhat vestigial 18th century rank-marker military standards, or others similarly ceremonial, so say it was a 17th c. piece; a greater weight and solidity might be "right" for all I know. If it seems cast, it's likely 1850-1930. What about the decorative theme; the man or boy; I know there's not much detail left, but it seems like a "stock" image; perhaps a datable one?

13th April 2005, 03:14 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Personally, I can't help wondering if it's a decorative piece made of cast iron. For what it's worth, I was thinking partizan as well. Fearn

13th April 2005, 03:35 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The pictures take a while; I never saw the end of the socket before. It seems thicker than proper; is it flanged from being beaten upon? Is it folded-over to the in side? Or is it straight-up just that thick? Anyway, the socket, especially the inside, is where you'll either likely see casting lines, or a forging line where it was rolled up, and maybe a tanglike nub from the blade-base. I personally think I may see a casting line disapearing into that shadow. I, too, suspect a casting, late 19th/early 20th, and moreso with that thick socket end, but I'm not sure. How old is the break at the tip? it does not look sharpened? Is there crystalize "grain" visible? Ie pebbly surface? Is there delamination/layers visible here or anywhere?

13th April 2005, 03:27 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	For a partizan it looks more heavy than normally seen, so I agree that it is cast. Jens

13th April 2005, 08:00 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Doesn't the socket seem a bit too short to be functional? -d

16th April 2005, 04:35 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The uses are many, including those listed by Tom, while another common usage for similar items was/is as gate and wall fillials in large estates, with smaller, spear-like heads mounted on the bars themselves.....I've seen variuos polearm heads, both simulated and real, used as such in SE Asia, the US and in photographs from S. America as well and suspect similar may be found throughout Europe. Cast iron "replicas" are often made locally for theatrical use as well, as I've known gentlemen who produce such in both Michigan and here in Florida as well. Oh...and don't forget flagpole fillials, both on today's pieces and on regimental/company military flagpoles from the erly 1900's back to the revolutionary period here in the US, as well as for fraternal organizations that can cover a wide range of time periods. With the apparenty flattened edges and heavy weight, I suspect that yours may well have been used in the latter fashion. Mike

16th April 2005, 06:09 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've linked this thead to MyArmoury. Perhaps someone over there can add to the discussion. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...?p=38715#38715

16th April 2005, 06:21 AM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Is it too late to say, "if you don't want it........."?grin Obviously, I personally find it has a certain appeal Mike

16th April 2005, 02:43 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Tim, good pics; thanks; I didn't see them before? I do think that if one examined the ones you picture one would find them much lighter than this piece. I wouldn't say this piece is in decorative condition; quite the opposite, actually; it seems to have lost much of its appearance, but to be still quite solid (for cast iron, if that's what it is), and likely close to as useful as it ever was. There's nothing short about the socket, unless it's not hollow its full length. I do think it's a casting, mainly because of the seemingly excessive and impractical weight of various features, and if so, then it was, of course, made as a decorative/ceremonial/etc. piece. Dang English tourist spears That's a joke.....................................