Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Once again to the 'pineapple'......Fearn mentioned what type fruit might have been presumed by the Freemasons to be on the Tree of Life .......I looked in "Herders Dictionary of Symbolism" (1978), and there was the pine cone!
It is noted that the pinecone crowned the Tree of Life in many Christian representations, and represented power and justice (p.191). What better pommel to associate with the 'Flaming Sword' which stood at the Gates of Paradise in guard of the Tree. The illustration shown in the book of the cone of course looked remarkably like our pommel!
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All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim ,
the pine cone does seem very likely......I had 'dismissed' the idea previously (and came up with Raspberry ) as the leaves of the pine are 'needles' and totally different to those 'portrayed' on the pommel.

Following on from your excellent post I found further 'evidence' that there are other symbolic elements that seem to be displayed on the hilt. Firstly the use of a pine cone type fruit has been associated with the 'tree of life' since Ancient times (Sumerians, Babylonians etc.)

".... The Tree (of life) always has fruit or foliage. The fruit is usually rather large and plump and sometimes looking like a pine cone . The fruit as a pine cone was its most popular depiction even unto the Greeks and Romans....."

Also mentioned is the 'rosette' another symbolic motif, the guard seems to exhibit this...

".....Then we have the rosette. It too is a symbol connected to the Tree of Life. It has eight spoke-like leaves just like the symbol for the sun god Shamash....."

The crosses do not exactly match the more common Maltese styled cross often associated with 'Freemasonry' ... but during the time that the hilt was manufactured ... perhaps it was.

It is also stated that a snake (or dragon, which is considered 'serpentine') resides near the tree of life......perhaps, there is a possibility that the blade symbolises this

http://firstlegend.info/3rivers/3rivervalley.html

As to the functionality of the blade ..... it would be nice to be able to handle the sword in question to ascertain its characteristics ....the blade edges are described as sharp ...which does suggest its for use rather than show. As to its strength... the serpentine blade would have less flex than suggested by Fearn, I'm thinking about the comparison between , say a 'flat' sheet of steel and a corregated sheet of the same material. Fearn is right , in that the tip is not in direct alignment with the centre of the hilt. It is also 'rounded'....However there is a possibility that the tip was damaged and the 'end' of the blade reworked.
Functionality does not always equate to 'effectiveness' ....that is why blade designs 'come and go'. As Rapiers were generally civilian defensive weapons, less effective designs may have 'survived' momentarily due to the 'wow' factor. I would imagine that many 'gentlemen' that carried a Rapier ...never actually used them ....perhaps the 'threat' was more than enough to discourage 'trouble' from the 'lower' (poorly armed) classes whilst walking the streets.

This has been a very interesting thread mainly due to the excellent information from Jim, good work . Also Fearn, thanks for being a 'sparring partner', when I try to play the Devil's Advocate it trully helps to have a 'counter argument'...which, for me, seems to open new 'avenues of discussion'


Kind Regards David

[fearn]

Hi David,

Yes, I enjoy a good argument too. Thanks for pointing out the flowers and foliage on the guard. I'd missed that. Those rosettes are eight-petaled, and that's a really unusual number for real flowers (read, it happens very rarely, and these are NOT representatives of a real species). Because of that, I agree that those little rosettes are probably symbols.

Another thing is to remember is that northern Europeans didn't get to see palm trees unless they traveled, so on Palm Sunday, they often used conifer branches in place of palm branches. Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some confusion between pines and palms. Also, we have the Cedar of Lebanon, another Mid-eastern species (the wood was used to build the Ark of the Covenant), and we could be seeing representations of cedar as well as pine. One thing I've noticed is that many mystical and religious types tend not to be up on their botany (ditto with swordsmiths), and so we can't count on plants being identified and portrayed properly in their art.

As for the handling characteristics, I agree that it would be nice to handle it, and until then, we can argue about its characteristics. One thing to remember, though, is that this blade is going to be heavier than a straight blade of the same point-hilt length, because those undulations add some extra mass. If it faced a straight blade of the same length, all other things being equal, it would be a little slower.

One thing that I brought up before, that got ignored, was how odd the guard is. It's symmetrical (compare with Bilbao rapier under discussion). Since this is almost certainly a commissioned piece, I would expect to see a guard that is right-handed or left-handed, to suit the user. Moreover, the wear on the grip (see Katana's previous post) looks right-handed to me, as it's right where a right index finger would rub.

There are a couple of reasons why the guard could be symmetrical. One is that the symmetry is important to its symbolic value. That's possible. Another is that it was built to be used by more than one person, as in an armoury sword (see the post by Paul MacDonald talking about baskethilts). However, I don't think this is an armoury sword.

However, it could have belonged to a lodge or similar institution, as a ritual sword. That could explain the symmetric guard.

On with the debate!

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

David, thank you very much for the kind words, and for the followup with more great detail......excellent information on the ancient symbolism, as well as the rosettes, which I seem to have missed entirely !
Fearn, thank you also for your additions of yet more detail, and well placed comments concerning the botanical errata that seems to be quite notable in representations in weapon motif. Good points on the symmetry here as well, and another thing I overlooked, partly because I was focused on the symbolism of this sword and had leaned away from it being intended for actual combat.
The interaction between you and David has been outstanding, and it is great to see opposing ideas presented with supported perspective and sound reasoning, and completely constructive in evaluating various aspects being considered here. Without the comments and observations all of you guys bring up, the discussion would veer way off course, so its all a team effort!!

It truly is a great debate, and I always look forward to discovering more!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Finally, I have one image of the referenced spanish flammard rapier-like swords. It has a straight blade with curved edges, and it was meant as a combat weapon. Please see this example:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7262

I just culdn´t find it before, as it was saved on my PC without reference to the form of the blade, and the name-tag on the catalog also does not specify this point.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Finally, I have one image of the referenced spanish flammard rapier-like swords. It has a straight blade with curved edges, and it was meant as a combat weapon. Please see this example:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7262

I just culdn´t find it before, as it was saved on my PC without reference to the form of the blade, and the name-tag on the catalog also does not specify this point.
Regards

Gonzalo

Thank you Gonzalo for keeping after that!! Excellent example of wavy edges, rather than wavy blade...and as you have previously noted, the simple omission describing these in discussion or narration can really lead to difficulties in considering dynamics.
All the best,
Jim