My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2008, 08:33 PM

Me too Fearn!

I forgot about the military trophy panoply, which adds to my thoughts on this being a gift to someone of gentry/ military status, and again, since the markings are not necessary on cutlery....and non functional chain, scabbard, decorative hilt and blade tip.....stronger move toward cutlery....recalling hunting weapon motif?

All the best,
Jim

katana · 5th November 2008, 09:21 PM

The scabbard certainly does not look robust enough for the 'rigours' of hunting. ...but there is the possibility that the scabbard is a later replacement. The peculiar tip is definately a riddle, I have searched veterinary, surgical and hunting knives for a 'similar tip ...and have not found its equal.

There is one possiblity that the tip is a 'hoof hook' ...a tool used to remove stones.....from hooves . Since horses were often used during the hunt...a temporary 'lame' horse (with a stone embedded in a hoof) would be a problem ...and would have to be 'walked' back to the stable.

The blade is quite substantial.... I am wondering whether this was re-hilted and re-sheathed...possibly at the same time.

A very strange beast indeed.

Regards David

fearn · 5th November 2008, 10:42 PM

Hi Jim,

Another thing I just realized is that there's a reason to put a serving knife in a sheath, and that is if you're going to be serving outside, at a picnic or such. Then I thought of the kind of "picnic" that would use such a thing, and that boggled my mind. I tend to lean towards your idea of being some sort of presentation piece, but then we're stuck with the question of why it got sharpened.

Hi Katana,

As for the "hoof pick," well it could be, but looking at a couple pages of google pictures, and I'm not convinced. Basically, the point doesn't stick out far enough, and it's at the end of a sharp blade, which means that levering a pebble out would be difficult (unless you hold it by the sharp edge). I think it works better as a gut hook, although I really think that this tip wasn't designed to take much strain in any direction.

I know! It was specifically designed to fool collectors!

F

CourseEight · 6th November 2008, 01:29 AM

Hi all!

Sorry for my delay in replying; in my absense things certainly have gone somewhere! The middle fitting on the scabbard is no longer fixed, and does slide up and down the sheath. There is a solder mark at the location in the pictures, but this could have been done much later. If any position of the lower chain attachment makes sense, it could go there.

The blade simply does not strike me as a serving piece. I'm totally with Jim on the markings, and given the period of the piece it makes sense that they would be used as was normal in that period, rather as we may see them now.

I would, however, certainly entertain the idea that this blade was re-hilted and/or re-scabbarded. The main problem with the chain is that given the weight of the handle I can't figure out a way to get it to hang right if suspended only by the chain, no matter the location of the fixed points. Maybe I'm just not sure how such a piece would actually be worn, so I can't judge. So I guess the problem may not be the chain, but the handle? Which could have surely been "upgraded" in the movement of the 1850s that Tim's article describes.

I'm enjoying the debate very much! Thanks!

--Radleigh

5th November 2008, 08:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Me too Fearn! I forgot about the military trophy panoply, which adds to my thoughts on this being a gift to someone of gentry/ military status, and again, since the markings are not necessary on cutlery....and non functional chain, scabbard, decorative hilt and blade tip.....stronger move toward cutlery....recalling hunting weapon motif? All the best, Jim

5th November 2008, 09:21 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The scabbard certainly does not look robust enough for the 'rigours' of hunting. ...but there is the possibility that the scabbard is a later replacement. The peculiar tip is definately a riddle, I have searched veterinary, surgical and hunting knives for a 'similar tip ...and have not found its equal. There is one possiblity that the tip is a 'hoof hook' ...a tool used to remove stones.....from hooves . Since horses were often used during the hunt...a temporary 'lame' horse (with a stone embedded in a hoof) would be a problem ...and would have to be 'walked' back to the stable. The blade is quite substantial.... I am wondering whether this was re-hilted and re-sheathed...possibly at the same time. A very strange beast indeed. Regards David

5th November 2008, 10:42 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Another thing I just realized is that there's a reason to put a serving knife in a sheath, and that is if you're going to be serving outside, at a picnic or such. Then I thought of the kind of "picnic" that would use such a thing, and that boggled my mind. I tend to lean towards your idea of being some sort of presentation piece, but then we're stuck with the question of why it got sharpened. Hi Katana, As for the "hoof pick," well it could be, but looking at a couple pages of google pictures, and I'm not convinced. Basically, the point doesn't stick out far enough, and it's at the end of a sharp blade, which means that levering a pebble out would be difficult (unless you hold it by the sharp edge). I think it works better as a gut hook, although I really think that this tip wasn't designed to take much strain in any direction. I know! It was specifically designed to fool collectors! F

6th November 2008, 01:29 AM	#4
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi all! Sorry for my delay in replying; in my absense things certainly have gone somewhere! The middle fitting on the scabbard is no longer fixed, and does slide up and down the sheath. There is a solder mark at the location in the pictures, but this could have been done much later. If any position of the lower chain attachment makes sense, it could go there. The blade simply does not strike me as a serving piece. I'm totally with Jim on the markings, and given the period of the piece it makes sense that they would be used as was normal in that period, rather as we may see them now. I would, however, certainly entertain the idea that this blade was re-hilted and/or re-scabbarded. The main problem with the chain is that given the weight of the handle I can't figure out a way to get it to hang right if suspended only by the chain, no matter the location of the fixed points. Maybe I'm just not sure how such a piece would actually be worn, so I can't judge. So I guess the problem may not be the chain, but the handle? Which could have surely been "upgraded" in the movement of the 1850s that Tim's article describes. I'm enjoying the debate very much! Thanks! --Radleigh