My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[Rick]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out.

That would seem sensible but a gut hook needs to be very sharp and the inside of the tip does not seem to me to be sharpened for the task; also the extreme curve would seem to make gutting prey very awkward .

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...6_2007_1292659

That chain appears purely decorative as the links do not appear to be welded or soldered for strengththening purposes .

I'm kind of leaning towards Fernando's point of view .

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

That's why I called it a fruit knife back there. Anyway, there's a way to settle the "gut hook" issue. Try to use it, preferably on something soft and harmless like a piece of paper or a paper towel. Of course, most of us have bought knives that can't perform their putative functions, but if it really can't cut, that might tell us something.

The first thing that tip reminded me of was one of those faux forks on the tip of a cheese knife, and that, combined with the goat head and grapes up top made me think of a party piece.

A couple more observations. One question: is the bound figure a man or a woman? The figure below is definitely male, and while I agree that he doesn't have goat hooves, the satyrs that accompanied Dionysus didn't necessarily have hooves either (Wikipedia Dionysus and satyr picture link; Wikipedia Satyr article ). Alternatively, it could be a bound woman with a man between her legs.

I still lean towards the bound figure being Dionysus or Bacchus. Man or woman, the symbolism on the handle is more consistent with partying than with hunting, in my opinion.

The second observation is the piece may have lasted, simply because it didn't get used very often. That would argue either that it was a presentation piece (thanks Fernando!), a party piece, or a hunting knife that was poorly designed, and hence didn't get used often.

This is a great discussion. Thanks gentlemen!

F

[Rick]

Fearn,
One could imagine a bit of cheese impaled on its tip .

[Jim McDougall]

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and well so as this is truly a fascinating piece. While I think we all pretty much agree on its approximate date or period, the question remains whether it was intended for the hunt, or was it a fancy piece of cutlery for serving at lavish events.

I feel that the elaborately profiled point is aesthetically intended, though my mention of the fishing knife feature was to illustrate that deliberate features similar did exist on other sporting edged weapons.

As far as the scabbard, I did find a single example of serving knife, nowhere this elaborate, which did have a scabbard, but for the most part it does not seem these were with serving cutlery.
Also, concerning the talismanic magical markings, Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons" op.cit. p.41) notes, concerning these magical markings on blades, that "...it had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck. On many hunting sword blades therefore, magical signs or numbers are engraved for this purpose".
It is discussed that these astrological or 'magical' signs appear to have evolved from the calendar or zodiacal inscriptions on hunting blades that were relied on to insure good fortune and protection in the often dangerous hunts. Eventually, the gentry, often also serving as officers in military regiments, began to adopt these symbols in similar context on thier sword blades.

With this feature on this blade, it is difficult to imagine why such talismanic protection would be required on a serving knife or cutlery, unless it was simply to reflect that seen on hunting weapons as a gift for an especially enthusiastic hunter. If this was a presentation or gift, as somewhat being considered given the decorative chain and scabbard, this might be the explanation.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

While I lack your knowledge of the decorations on hunting weapons, I'm not all that sure that the images are completely talismanic. Basically, they include a sun, a moon, an image that combines the wind and a compass rose (perhaps the winds), and a martial image combining sabers, spears, drums, and a fasces. None of these are occult, certainly. One could propose that the images are insignia for a military group, some noble or other, or even artistic license.

While I agree that serving knives typically don't have sheaths, my Korean girlfriend recently gave me this nice little korean paring knife, complete with its own sheath. She got it for a few bucks at a local oriental grocery store. She was annoyed by the paring knives in my drawer. This is just a counter-example, but it does make the point. We're used to cheese knives coming with cheese boards, but we don't have a context on this knife, except that it was old and well-made.

I'd also note that the sheath on our mystery blade appears to be non-functional, in that it can't be hung by its chain. Unless the chain fittings have slipped forward over the years (a question for CourseEight), I'm having trouble believing that it was a field knife.

Anyway, I'm enjoying procrastinating with this topic. Thank you!

F

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Fearn!
I forgot about the military trophy panoply, which adds to my thoughts on this being a gift to someone of gentry/ military status, and again, since the markings are not necessary on cutlery....and non functional chain, scabbard, decorative hilt and blade tip.....stronger move toward cutlery....recalling hunting weapon motif?

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

The scabbard certainly does not look robust enough for the 'rigours' of hunting. ...but there is the possibility that the scabbard is a later replacement. The peculiar tip is definately a riddle, I have searched veterinary, surgical and hunting knives for a 'similar tip ...and have not found its equal.

There is one possiblity that the tip is a 'hoof hook' ...a tool used to remove stones.....from hooves . Since horses were often used during the hunt...a temporary 'lame' horse (with a stone embedded in a hoof) would be a problem ...and would have to be 'walked' back to the stable.

The blade is quite substantial.... I am wondering whether this was re-hilted and re-sheathed...possibly at the same time.

A very strange beast indeed.

Regards David

[bjeweled]

I was wondering with the spear, sword, axe and drum encompassed by the flag and banners...is it posssible that it is some sort of ceremonial representation...you know...kinda like what we do on the 4th of July?

As far as the tip of the blade...looks like it would open a capped bottle...say maybe, a beer bottle? Let's you know how my mind works...

[fearn]

Hi CourseEight,

Thanks for the information on the scabbard. I guess the question is that if you think it's been remanufactured, what is your sense of the relative age of the pieces? I won't disagree that it could have been rebuilt, but we're then left with a question of what the original pieces were, and what the current piece was supposed to do, other than be a work of art.

Hi bjeweled,

I was certainly thinking of US coins when I looked at that assemblage of designs, but reading the Wikipedia article on the fasces, the image also turned up in France from 1610-1815 in architecture, often associated with other Roman imagery (like Bacchus?). I haven't gone looking for historical fasces in Germany (I dislike wading through Nazi references), but perhaps the knife is from France?

As for the bottlecap, Wikipedia also kicked up a reference for that, and the first patent for a bottlecap was 1892. I think most of us think the knife is older than that, so it's probably not a purpose-designed bottle opener. I've got to admit, I'd thought of that too. It doesn't look like quite the right shape to pull a cork either.

Hmmm. Maybe it's a crochet hook?

F

[katana]

Hi
I did have another idea....but thought it would make the knife younger than everyone seems to think. However, I've learnt that my 'new' suggestion would still place this in the 19th C .

What if the 'end' of the knife is a 'can opener', the French produced canned food for the military .....but the 'can opener' was not 'invented until some 30 years later !!!! Often bayonets were used to open them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannery

and from another source....
".....by 1810 Englishman Peter Durance had taken the process a step further and sealed food in tin-plated, wrought iron containers. The soldiers who won the Battle of Waterloo five years later were nourished with the first tin cans.

But they were very thick and almost impossible to open without a hammer and chisel. Soldiers used knives, bayonets or even rocks, sometimes suffering serious injuries.

It wasn't until 1858 that the can opener was invented and having a plate of veg no longer meant risking chopping your leg off......"




Knife....military...19thC.....French ? British ?.....campaign knife.....can opener

Mystery solved

Regards David

.

[fernando]

Hi Radleigh ... and other gentle forumites
Can we say this is familiar ... the tip hook, i mean ?
Fernando

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[CourseEight]

Wow, once again sorry for the delay in my response, but so happy to those who have continued to help. Great painting, Gav, and a fascinating knife you've found, Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc.

Another interesting knife with some similarities, clearly Indian, just ended on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290287591758

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc. ...

I am sorry i didn't keep in mind all details, as i just focused on the blade tip, remembering the discussion had in this thread. Besides i was busy apreciating hundreds of pieces, having to select a couple for acquisition, so i just concentrated in asking the guy what the purpose of the blade tip was, besides some side questions. I remember he told me this was a multi purpose knife, i think Indian (not sure i remember or if he knew for sure), and the purpose of the tip hook was to extract tendons (sinew). I guess he was inferring this from his ( imense) experience but had no solid evidence ... just a feeling.
Otherwise it is a very nice piece, with an engraved silver handle, its pommel in an unusual drop shape. I just didn't buy it because it was not a weapon.
Sorry if this doesn't add much to the riddle of your own piece; was more to through more wood on the fire.
Fernando