Polish Hussar wings, used in battle or not?

Jamaz · 4th November 2008, 05:03 PM

Never ending story ..., but personally I don't believe that wings were used in battle. It could make big impression during parade, show or funeral, but in the battle were undoubtedly very unpractical and uncomfortable. I also don't believe, that hussar could easily operate the sabres wearing wings on his back (more probable are short wings mounted to saddle in order to make a noise). Not to mention about transport problems, wearing problems, etc. Nevertheless it could happen, that wings were used in some number of battles. XVII literature and diaries don't say to much about this topic.

Retained hussar backplates (worn till XVII c) only in few cases have fasteners for wings.
Since wings is hussar symbol in Poland, it's always presents on pictures, movies etc.

Kind regards,
Jamaz

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 05:27 PM

Jamaz thank you for responding on this topic, and its great to have input from someone from regions where this heritage is proudly preserved. I think your perspective is likely well placed, and I agree that these large, awkward devices would have been a hindrance in pitched battle. It seems that in medieval times there are often many misconceptions about knights in battle, including helms decorated with heraldic charges of awkward size. It has been proven that these were also most often funerary achievements, and often used in romantically charged artistic license.

Concerning practicality, as previously mentioned , the idea of these or any other size wings in order to produce frightening sound would have been superfluous, as the horrendous sound of charging cavalry in itself would drown out any such intended noise. It is interesting that, as David noted, the Samurai did mount a single identifying banner at the back of thier armour and apparantly, did wear this in battle. The origin of the wing idea did apparantly originate with the 'deli' light cavalry of the Turks, though it seems to have been a single wing and these were forward action, diversionary and distracting forces who deliberately sought to present disturbing image and create certain disorder among enemy troops.

With the Polish hussars, in any case, thier magnificent presence either with or without wings cannot be discounted. I appreciate your note on the known narrative and writings of the times not mentioning these wings in combat, and these were the references I was hoping would be noted on whether contemporary reports would have mentioned them.

Thank you for the input and interesting observations.
All best regards,
Jim

Jamaz · 5th November 2008, 02:15 PM

Thank you Jim,

Some paintings from XVII cent. presenting hussars:

Battle of Kircholm 1605, painted ca. 1630. My favourite one, becuase of detail level, like tactic, equipment etc.

General view:

Hussars charge 1:

Charge 2:

Hussar unit preparing for charge:

Among all of those details there are no wings.

My second favourite paint, the roll presenting entry of the Wedding Procession of Constance of Austria and Sigismund III into Cracow, 1605:

Small wings visible.

Best regards,
Jamaz.

Bill M · 5th November 2008, 02:37 PM

Though I would like to believe in the romance of the wings being worn in battle, I think that Jamaz makes good points. Here is a link, How the Hussars fought in the 17th century. No mention of wings, but they did have some very effective battle strategies!

http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/HowHussarFought.htm

I am still looking for wings in battle. I also want to comment on the head dresses worn by many American Indians also made of eagle feathers and looking very much like the Hussars' wings.

Will find some pictures.

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2008, 03:38 PM

Jamaz, I really appreciate these excellent illustrations which truly present contemporary views of these brilliant hussars, who were one of the most formidable cavalry of Europe..wings or not. I agree with Bill, in my minds eye I cannot dispel the image of these wonderfully romanticized horsemen, but it is good to resolve the truth in historic perspective. Nicely done on support for the ceremonial and parade use showing the high profile wedding procession! Again, its great having your input here, and having such well placed and represented perspective! Thank you Jamaz!!!

Bill....outstanding observation and great association, the eagle feathers were indeed important in American Indian war bonnets, and they were as you have noted equally romanticized in art and literature. That would be a great idea for another thread, and I would like to see more discussion on the weapons and associated costume of these tribes!!

Thank you both so much!!
All very best regards,
Jim

4th November 2008, 05:03 PM	#1
Jamaz Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lower Silesia, Poland Posts: 9	Never ending story ..., but personally I don't believe that wings were used in battle. It could make big impression during parade, show or funeral, but in the battle were undoubtedly very unpractical and uncomfortable. I also don't believe, that hussar could easily operate the sabres wearing wings on his back (more probable are short wings mounted to saddle in order to make a noise). Not to mention about transport problems, wearing problems, etc. Nevertheless it could happen, that wings were used in some number of battles. XVII literature and diaries don't say to much about this topic. Retained hussar backplates (worn till XVII c) only in few cases have fasteners for wings. Since wings is hussar symbol in Poland, it's always presents on pictures, movies etc. Kind regards, Jamaz

4th November 2008, 05:27 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Jamaz thank you for responding on this topic, and its great to have input from someone from regions where this heritage is proudly preserved. I think your perspective is likely well placed, and I agree that these large, awkward devices would have been a hindrance in pitched battle. It seems that in medieval times there are often many misconceptions about knights in battle, including helms decorated with heraldic charges of awkward size. It has been proven that these were also most often funerary achievements, and often used in romantically charged artistic license. Concerning practicality, as previously mentioned , the idea of these or any other size wings in order to produce frightening sound would have been superfluous, as the horrendous sound of charging cavalry in itself would drown out any such intended noise. It is interesting that, as David noted, the Samurai did mount a single identifying banner at the back of thier armour and apparantly, did wear this in battle. The origin of the wing idea did apparantly originate with the 'deli' light cavalry of the Turks, though it seems to have been a single wing and these were forward action, diversionary and distracting forces who deliberately sought to present disturbing image and create certain disorder among enemy troops. With the Polish hussars, in any case, thier magnificent presence either with or without wings cannot be discounted. I appreciate your note on the known narrative and writings of the times not mentioning these wings in combat, and these were the references I was hoping would be noted on whether contemporary reports would have mentioned them. Thank you for the input and interesting observations. All best regards, Jim

5th November 2008, 02:15 PM	#3
Jamaz Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lower Silesia, Poland Posts: 9	Thank you Jim, Some paintings from XVII cent. presenting hussars: Battle of Kircholm 1605, painted ca. 1630. My favourite one, becuase of detail level, like tactic, equipment etc. General view: Hussars charge 1: Charge 2: Hussar unit preparing for charge: Among all of those details there are no wings. My second favourite paint, the roll presenting entry of the Wedding Procession of Constance of Austria and Sigismund III into Cracow, 1605: Small wings visible. Best regards, Jamaz.

5th November 2008, 02:37 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Though I would like to believe in the romance of the wings being worn in battle, I think that Jamaz makes good points. Here is a link, How the Hussars fought in the 17th century. No mention of wings, but they did have some very effective battle strategies! http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/HowHussarFought.htm I am still looking for wings in battle. I also want to comment on the head dresses worn by many American Indians also made of eagle feathers and looking very much like the Hussars' wings. Will find some pictures.

5th November 2008, 03:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Jamaz, I really appreciate these excellent illustrations which truly present contemporary views of these brilliant hussars, who were one of the most formidable cavalry of Europe..wings or not. I agree with Bill, in my minds eye I cannot dispel the image of these wonderfully romanticized horsemen, but it is good to resolve the truth in historic perspective. Nicely done on support for the ceremonial and parade use showing the high profile wedding procession! Again, its great having your input here, and having such well placed and represented perspective! Thank you Jamaz!!! Bill....outstanding observation and great association, the eagle feathers were indeed important in American Indian war bonnets, and they were as you have noted equally romanticized in art and literature. That would be a great idea for another thread, and I would like to see more discussion on the weapons and associated costume of these tribes!! Thank you both so much!! All very best regards, Jim