Tegha or similar ?

Norman McCormick · 2nd November 2008, 01:06 PM

Hi Ward,
Difficult to know for sure if the spike existed or not certainly the edge is smooth and the hole is filled as is the whole dome which gives a nice counterbalance to the sword. I don't think it has been shortened by much, if at all, to continue the blade on its present curve would, to me, give a blade of very unwieldy and impractical proportions much like some of the Napoleonic British flank officers swords. The blade has been sharpened to take into account the mounting flange so if it is a marriage, as indeed I first thought, it would have to be a very old one maybe even an older hilt on a newer blade. The rivets that connect the flange to the basket appear to have been there a long time.

Hi Jim,
Many thanks as usual for all the information. I agree an unusual piece, an instant attraction for me. It certainly has the feel of a naval 'cutlass' type sword. I suppose when thinking of naval it doesn't need to be the sea, river pirates etc. sprung to my mind, must be the romantic in me. India has vast river complexes that have been used for centuries for trade etc. it is not too fanciful I think to imagine that a pirate or a merchant might find a good use such a sword. The only other thing I can think of is possibly a hunting sword similar to the European hunting hangar. The pirate scenario appeals more though. I hope more forum members will post their ideas. Thanks again for your interest.

Regards to All,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 2nd November 2008, 01:59 PM

Hi Jim,
Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks.
My Regards,
Norman.

bhushan_lawate · 3rd November 2008, 04:23 AM

Hi all,

Marathas did have a very strong navy presence. So did the Siddhi's (who were originally from Africa and were working under the Mughals)

There are historical accounts of lot of naval wars fought between the forces of British, Portugese, Marathas and Siddhis.

I have personally seen and have had the rare privilege of handling the personal sword of the first Maratha Admiral, Kanhoji Angre (also known as Angria in the British Factory Records).

Interestingly the sword in discussion here is very similar except that the personal sword of Angre has three fullers and a normal tulwar hilt. It also has some star shaped marks on the blade near the spine. It does not have a T shaped back but has a thick spine for reinforcement.

We cannot rule out the possibility of this sword being a naval sword.

Regards,
Bhushan.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm

P.S.: The Angre descendants are still living off the coast of Mumbai, India on a beach town called Alibaug. It is at their ancestral home in Alibaug the Famous Angre sword sits proudly in the Altar and is worshiped on auspicious days.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2008, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhushan_lawate

Hi all,

Marathas did have a very strong navy presence. So did the Siddhi's (who were originally from Africa and were working under the Mughals)

There are historical accounts of lot of naval wars fought between the forces of British, Portugese, Marathas and Siddhis.

I have personally seen and have had the rare privilege of handling the personal sword of the first Maratha Admiral, Kanhoji Angre (also known as Angria in the British Factory Records).

Interestingly the sword in discussion here is very similar except that the personal sword of Angre has three fullers and a normal tulwar hilt. It also has some star shaped marks on the blade near the spine. It does not have a T shaped back but has a thick spine for reinforcement.

We cannot rule out the possibility of this sword being a naval sword.

Regards,
Bhushan.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm

P.S.: The Angre descendants are still living off the coast of Mumbai, India on a beach town called Alibaug. It is at their ancestral home in Alibaug the Famous Angre sword sits proudly in the Altar and is worshiped on auspicious days.

Bhushan, thank you so much for your most valuable input on this sword. I very much appreciate your support for the possibility of this being a Maratha naval sword, and I find it very exciting to hear about the Angre sword. Is it possible that illustrations of this sword might be avialable? and would it be possible for them to be shown here given the deep reverence in which it is held by these descendants?

Very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
I dont have illustrations handy, but they have been discussed here quite a few times over the years (especially on the early makers trademarks thread now over on European Armoury). These markings have been the subject of considerable debate since the late 19th century, and commonly appear also on Caucasian blades termed 'gurda', as mentioned nearly all Afghan paluoars that I have seen, occasionally on Scottish Andrea Ferara blades, many European blades seen in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" E. Wagner, 1967, and some others.

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 4th November 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman,
I dont have illustrations handy, but they have been discussed here quite a few times over the years (especially on the early makers trademarks thread now over on European Armoury). These markings have been the subject of considerable debate since the late 19th century, and commonly appear also on Caucasian blades termed 'gurda', as mentioned nearly all Afghan paluoars that I have seen, occasionally on Scottish Andrea Ferara blades, many European blades seen in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" E. Wagner, 1967, and some others.

All the best,
Jim

Here is a "gurda" marking on a sword from Afghanistan.
Very nice sword/cutlass Norman! The possibility of it being a Maratha naval cutlass is especially intriguing.
Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 01:57 AM

Thank you Teodor for showing this example of the mark, which appears in proximity with what appears one of the Afghan arsenal marks. This one appears to emphasize the dentated or toothed characteristic of the original Genoan type markings. These usually were adjacent, opposed half circles, toothed and with three dots at each terminus of the half circle line.

With Genoan trade, these blade markings, which may have been guild markings rather than individual makers marks, but in any case signifying quality, found application on blades in other centers such as Styria, and finally Solingen. It is unclear why the mark seems to have appeared more consistantly on Afghan paluoar blades than other familiar European marks, but this was the case, and the influence seems to have reached other Indian trade, as possibly in this case with the Marathas.

All best regards,
Jim

bhushan_lawate · 4th November 2008, 05:12 AM

Hi all,

I do not have the snaps of this sword available with me however i'll be visiting the Angre Descendants in the beginning of 2009. I'll post a few snaps post my visit to the Angre house along with a few other swords from my collection.

regards,
Bhushan

Norman McCormick · 5th November 2008, 07:41 PM

Hi All,
I've noticed that the guard has remnants of black paint, or a similar substance, adhering to the inside. I know that the cutlasses issued to the British Navy in the 18/19th Cent. had their hilts painted if they were made of steel rather than brass, an attempt at keeping salt water corrosion at bay. I just wondered if there maybe similarities here. Of course some infantry/cavalry helmets and breastplates were painted black for a similar reason so ?????
I too would really be interested in seeing photographs of the sword that belonged to Admiral Angre.
My thanks to those who have taken an interest.
Regards,
Norman.

2nd November 2008, 01:06 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,645	Hi Ward, Difficult to know for sure if the spike existed or not certainly the edge is smooth and the hole is filled as is the whole dome which gives a nice counterbalance to the sword. I don't think it has been shortened by much, if at all, to continue the blade on its present curve would, to me, give a blade of very unwieldy and impractical proportions much like some of the Napoleonic British flank officers swords. The blade has been sharpened to take into account the mounting flange so if it is a marriage, as indeed I first thought, it would have to be a very old one maybe even an older hilt on a newer blade. The rivets that connect the flange to the basket appear to have been there a long time. Hi Jim, Many thanks as usual for all the information. I agree an unusual piece, an instant attraction for me. It certainly has the feel of a naval 'cutlass' type sword. I suppose when thinking of naval it doesn't need to be the sea, river pirates etc. sprung to my mind, must be the romantic in me. India has vast river complexes that have been used for centuries for trade etc. it is not too fanciful I think to imagine that a pirate or a merchant might find a good use such a sword. The only other thing I can think of is possibly a hunting sword similar to the European hunting hangar. The pirate scenario appeals more though. I hope more forum members will post their ideas. Thanks again for your interest. Regards to All, Norman.

2nd November 2008, 01:59 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,645	Hi Jim, Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks. My Regards, Norman.

3rd November 2008, 04:23 AM	#3
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi all, Marathas did have a very strong navy presence. So did the Siddhi's (who were originally from Africa and were working under the Mughals) There are historical accounts of lot of naval wars fought between the forces of British, Portugese, Marathas and Siddhis. I have personally seen and have had the rare privilege of handling the personal sword of the first Maratha Admiral, Kanhoji Angre (also known as Angria in the British Factory Records). Interestingly the sword in discussion here is very similar except that the personal sword of Angre has three fullers and a normal tulwar hilt. It also has some star shaped marks on the blade near the spine. It does not have a T shaped back but has a thick spine for reinforcement. We cannot rule out the possibility of this sword being a naval sword. Regards, Bhushan. http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm P.S.: The Angre descendants are still living off the coast of Mumbai, India on a beach town called Alibaug. It is at their ancestral home in Alibaug the Famous Angre sword sits proudly in the Altar and is worshiped on auspicious days.

4th November 2008, 01:57 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,602	Thank you Teodor for showing this example of the mark, which appears in proximity with what appears one of the Afghan arsenal marks. This one appears to emphasize the dentated or toothed characteristic of the original Genoan type markings. These usually were adjacent, opposed half circles, toothed and with three dots at each terminus of the half circle line. With Genoan trade, these blade markings, which may have been guild markings rather than individual makers marks, but in any case signifying quality, found application on blades in other centers such as Styria, and finally Solingen. It is unclear why the mark seems to have appeared more consistantly on Afghan paluoar blades than other familiar European marks, but this was the case, and the influence seems to have reached other Indian trade, as possibly in this case with the Marathas. All best regards, Jim

4th November 2008, 05:12 AM	#8
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi all, I do not have the snaps of this sword available with me however i'll be visiting the Angre Descendants in the beginning of 2009. I'll post a few snaps post my visit to the Angre house along with a few other swords from my collection. regards, Bhushan

5th November 2008, 07:41 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,645	Hi All, I've noticed that the guard has remnants of black paint, or a similar substance, adhering to the inside. I know that the cutlasses issued to the British Navy in the 18/19th Cent. had their hilts painted if they were made of steel rather than brass, an attempt at keeping salt water corrosion at bay. I just wondered if there maybe similarities here. Of course some infantry/cavalry helmets and breastplates were painted black for a similar reason so ????? I too would really be interested in seeing photographs of the sword that belonged to Admiral Angre. My thanks to those who have taken an interest. Regards, Norman.