French mameluke? first batch of images

[celtan]

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

Wow! Thats a nice one too Manolo! This is a 'spadroon' type hilt (a very confusing term usually applied to straight blade sabres for infantry officers about 1780 with these neoclassic type hilts) which is mounted with a M1796 light cavalry 'hatchet point' sabre blade (but much more parabolic than standard). I have often wondered if there was some unofficial move for British officers putting these sabre blades on the established hilts which usually had straight blades.
I once had one of these c.1780 hilts which should have had the usual straight cavalry blade of 1780's (heavy cavalry) and had a curved sabre blade on it.

I have seen Scottish basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as well, so it would seem that officers may well have had thier armourers mount these curved blades at thier whim, which was pretty standard in those rather flamboyant times.

You're right, Russian officers too would often yield to fashion oriented exuberance in weapons, and the Persian shamshir was a weapon admired by anyone who had exposure to them.

The tip on your sabre seems 'rebated' or rounded, which is a standard alteration intended to widen the end of the blade for slashing cuts. This is often seen on Omani kattara and Tuareg takouba which characteristically have these points.


It seems to me both you and 'Nando have got amazing collections, and we're lucky to have you guys sharing things here. Thank you so much!!


All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

Not at all Manolo! It was nice of you to post these, as they show an interesting aspect of swords in the period at the end of the 18th and early years of the 19th centuries. As far as the rounded tip on the extremely parabolic sabre blade, actually that was not common for sabres, especially French.
The Napoleonic French light cavalry sabres had points, and what was distinct about French cavalry is that they were ordered to 'give point' in many instances. That is in attacking the sabre was held in high tierce and thrusting downward movement, if my understanding of the manuever is correct. It is well established that these thrusting wounds were nearly always fatal, and the argument for many years was thrust was superior to the cut for that reason.
The ultimate goal was a sword blade which accomplished both in equal degree. The French heavy cavalry chausseurs of course had straight swords for thrusting, but not as effective in cuts as the sabre.

The British 'spadroon' type hilt you have shown with the unusually curved M1796 light cavalry type blade, has the distinct 'hatchet point' of these 1796 patterns. The M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt had similar hatchet type point,which indicates a blade tip which radiuses around with wide cutting edge. It is interesting that the Royal Scots Greys as they left England for Belgium just before Waterloo, were ordered to grind down thier blades to a spear point, illustrating once again the concerns for cut vs. thrust.

The hatchet point blades on the British M1796 light cavalry sabres were altogether too effective at cutting, and created such gore and mayhem that they were declared 'barbaric' weapons by Napoleon himself. These blades became long lived in the theater in India when they became favored by native cavalry units and tribal warriors, for thier profound cutting abilities. While the regulation British swords 'advanced' to pointed tips in 1829, these hatchet point types were produced for Indian regiments until the early 20th century.

I think much of the excitement in regulation swords is focused around the M1796 period and the early 19th century. I recall an article written by a friend in Denmark on the M1796 light cavalry sabres, which revealed as many as half dozen or more variations. Some were yeomanry, while many were interpretations by various vendors, and in this time the colonels supplied thier units, so between these factors, there was a spectrum of variations not seen in any other regulation pattern in this degree.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Hello Jim,

I don't think this could be a special officer sword.
Officer's swords are private property and should not bear rack number on the hilt like this one
Numbers on the hilt are stamped in the regiments when the sword is issued to troopers for the service. The cross out number and the second number show that it was first isued in a regiment, came back in the artillery stores, and was reissued again. This happens only for regulation trooper swords and clearly this curvature is not regulation, I never saw any of them in documents. The only explanation is that the sword was curved after its normal regulation life.
Why and when it was done will remain a mystery, I am afraid.
If Manuel can give a close up of the poinçons on the hilt, or a description, I can check if the hilt date match the blade.

Furthermore, this parabolic blade doesn't fit the fashion of the period. During this period there was an inclination for straight swords. Many non regulation swords have a straight blade, medaillon style hilt (like the Zouave pattern) or multiple branches steel hilt wich finally gave birth to the regulation infantry pattern 1882.

When some romantic officers still wanted an highly curved blade sword, they sticked with the classic "sabre à l'orientale" with a wide flat decorated blade and only high rank officers could take the liberty to wear this kind of extravagant "sabre à l'orientale".
Note also that such highly curved blade needs a special scabbard with a slid on the side to allow sheathing.

Thank you for your warm welcome, but I am afraid I do not visit forums often anymore. However, feel free to drop me an email if you feel I can help.

All the best,
Jean