Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

[Ian]

It's late and I don't have much time to respond.

Rick: Yes, the hilt on that cut point bolo looks similar to the one I show, although mine is minus the spiral groove and the handle is made of wood not caribou horn. With the provenance you have, it must be almost certainly from the Philippines. Is the blade the usual V-grind or chisel ground?

I think you and others have effectively established that this general style of knife existed in the Philippines, and that was known before the present post and is not really an issue. The question comes down to whether this is a predominantly Spanish style or a Philippine style. If it is unique to the Philippines, then I need look no further. If the style is predominantly Spanish, and given the military inscription in Spanish that may be a logical deduction, then the possibilities are much broader. That's why I'm looking carefully at the particular characteristics to see if they match common experiences with other Philippine knives of this variety. If not, it could be an uncommon example of a Filipino knife, or an example from somewhere else in the former Spanish Empire. BTW, I have had no success in tracking down the regimental number.

Tom: I'm having trouble communicating the cross section of the blade, largely because I don't really know what to call it. The back is perfectly flat. The other side has a convex grind to the edge, not a flat bevel of the wide (Visayan) or narrow (Batangas) variety.

Zel: No question that Luzon knives can have ferrules at either end and a variety of cross sections, as you have illustrated. Of the examples that you show, perhaps the hilt at the bottom comes closest to my knife (minus the guard). A picture from the end of the pommel will help explain the shape of the hilt, and I will post one shortly.

I also understand that pointed bolos were prohibited by the Spanish at certain times to limit the local population's use of such lethal weapons. But this is a regimentally marked blade -- why would a compromised weapon be issued to/used by a Government soldier? Perhaps Tom's suggestion of a tool is correct.

Ian.

[Rick]

Hi Ian , perhaps the answer (or clues) may be found in a study of the regimental history .

I'd also like to ask you if Marc has suggested any particular alternate Spanish Colonial areas as origin .

To add I'd also like to suggest that hand engraving (which is what this script looks like to me) would not be used for a Gov't issue work knife .

We have seen plenty of examples of bringbacks and souvenir pieces that have been hand engraved .

[zelbone]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Ian , perhaps the answer (or clues) may be found in a study of the regimental history .

I'd also like to ask you if Marc has suggested any particular alternate Spanish Colonial areas as origin .

To add I'd also like to suggest that hand engraving (which is what this script looks like to me) would not be used for a Gov't issue work knife .

We have seen plenty of examples of bringbacks and souvenir pieces that have been hand engraved .

I was thinking the same thing, Rick. This could have been a Spanish soldier's souvenir.

[tom hyle]

Some unorganized thoughts: Rick's middle sword, the one with the spiral handle, looks like it may actually be shortened(?) As I explain a bit on the other current thread about these (Is there a combining function? can someone post a clickable link? Am I making too much work for people?), some people do like a wide/blunt tip for fighting. But probably it was a soldier's private issue sword, quite possibly from his past civilian life, but often military units like to keep the men "disarmed" when not fighting; and it is in specifically ,military or other confined regimented environments where you sometimes find regulations that can create such blades.
Matulis do indeed closely resemble some Spainish and Mexican bolos ( I will try to send a pic, one day, one day.....); food for definite thought. Of course, the unit designation could well be that of a foreign/invading soldier, as Rick says.
Ian, I think the cross-section you're describing is "humpy-flatty" flat as flat or an obvious attempt at it on one side, the other wedges all the way down to the edge, but is distinctly not flat, but humped with a continual rounded convexly curved surface. This is a common alternative form of a chisel grind, and is probably created more in after-market sharpening in many cases, but is similar to a one-sided version of, for instance, a Japanese "clam shell" bevel, but on the other hand, a similarly humped surface, though with a centralized edge, like the clamshell, is not uncommon on old European swords, especially "folk art"/poor peoples' swords.....

[tom hyle]

Furthermore, I do think the way the blade narrows toward the end, rather than being parrallel edged or widening, as well as its curvature is similar to the pointed matulis, and is a further indication that this is an altered form of that.

[Federico]

Just curious if you ever found out what type of wood is on the hilt, possibly another clue to origin. As you noted it is a fairly ubiquitous style in Spanish colonies, were you able to establish if these are Spanish army markings or simply markings in Spanish? Towards the end of the 19th century, we are speaking of a very limited area from where the knife could come from, if it is Spanish Army. If just simply in Spanish, well even in PI many official documents were still in Spanish up to the 1930s.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Ian

It's late and I don't have much time to respond.

Rick: Yes, the hilt on that cut point bolo looks similar to the one I show, although mine is minus the spiral groove and the handle is made of wood not caribou horn. With the provenance you have, it must be almost certainly from the Philippines. Is the blade the usual V-grind or chisel ground?

I think you and others have effectively established that this general style of knife existed in the Philippines, and that was known before the present post and is not really an issue. The question comes down to whether this is a predominantly Spanish style or a Philippine style. If it is unique to the Philippines, then I need look no further. If the style is predominantly Spanish, and given the military inscription in Spanish that may be a logical deduction, then the possibilities are much broader. That's why I'm looking carefully at the particular characteristics to see if they match common experiences with other Philippine knives of this variety. If not, it could be an uncommon example of a Filipino knife, or an example from somewhere else in the former Spanish Empire. BTW, I have had no success in tracking down the regimental number.
Ian.

Hi Ian , my bolo is definitely chisel ground in that it has a flat side right to the edge , the other side has more like a gentle curve to edge of the the flat side rather than the angular Visayan style of edge .

That would still be chisel ground , no ?

Is there any literature we know of on the work knives of Old Spain ?

Rick

[tom hyle]

Rick, I'll try to check the old swap forum for your postings. Whenever I try to search the new forums, it always tells me no matches; always, even when I use words or phrases I know are in there; I suppose I'm doing it wrong; just never cared enough to seek help with it; always plenty else to do....

[tom hyle]

What did I say the other day "nothing like the grocery line for thinking?" Yeah, except traffic and lights on the way to work Firsrt, let me say, as I already have that the idea of sort of Pan-Imperial Spanish colonial styles and features has a lot of validity to it, but I do think that in most cases (not all) some local feature or features can be tracked down. But certainly features are very similar/widespread; the leather sheaths from Luzon are almost exactly like those from Central and S America, down to the slanty strap holes; these two Mexican daggers I have are very matulis-like, and it is certainly possible that it has its origin in Spanish bolos, but let me elucidate some things about the concept that the matulis and the talibon are related, and especially that one sees intermediate forms. First, I'm pretty sure that matulis Ian described sounds like a type of "chisel" (ie, one-sided) bevel, and if not I have owned one matulis with a chisel-ground edge, and bid on another that I did not bid high enough to buy it. Second, there are a lot of matulis-like talibons or talibesques. I have a conception of a "true talibon"; it may be a culturally valid distinction or not, but it is a defineable thing, if nothing else; let me tell you about it; the true talibon has these features: A curved, SE chisel-bevelled blade with a widened belly, that may be widest at middle, or near either tip or base; A very characteristic trapezoidal (I usually call it triangular, but it's really a trapezoid) nonsharp shaft/ricassoe; A fairly sharp and distinct angle between the two; Handle is wider toward the blade (this may be to make up for both no ferule and no guard); Handle is curved, with a hooked pommel. Note that I did not include features that are variations/options/etc. within talibon, such as thumbrests, curved vs. straight spine to cutting blade, 3 lobe pommel, various cross sections, or what-have-you. There is, however, one fairly common type of variation that doesn't fit my definition (again, possibly false due to foreign-ness, but never the less useful, and is talibon even a word? ) of true talibon; others consider it talibon; I think of it as a variety of talibesque. Picture a talibon. One with a curved cutting blade, curved spine and edge. But with no sharp angle between shaft and blade, buta forward curve, so s-curved. But with a straight (though still usually hook-pommelled) handle. Maybe it even has an overall wedge section, with a chisel ground edge. Perhaps it is even not a highly curved one. Now, that is one matulis-like talibon; that seems like an intermediate form right there, to me. And I've got one sitting right on my shelf, and I think there's a pic of it in my camera.

Surely knowledge of ethnic locations, movements, etc. would help clarify this matter, but I have little.

What else makes for a talisbesque? A binagon or "Bonifacio" style handle with a tapered ferule or bolster. I've seen a number, and with or without a guard. Some of them could verge over into talibon-like matulis.
Also, when the swell of the blade base transitions into a true dropped edge, I think some sort of line has been crossed, style/design wise, whether that means one is not a "true" talibon, or that there are just various types of talibon......often with this feature is seen a more European style ricassoe, on the talibon/talibesque.

Ian, If you are able to scan pictures, and will send me your snail mail address, I'll mail you a couple pictures. I think you're onto something important with the spread of cultural influence through the Spanish empire.

[Ian]

Here are some pictures of the hilt of the knife above. The first one shows the tear drop cross section as reflected in the shape of the butt plate (the edge of the blade is oriented up in each of these pictures). The pointed end of the tear drop is quite sharp, and that sharpness is reflected in the shape of the wooden grip. A narrow ridge runs down the edge-side of the handle, as seen in the second picture -- the shadow on the back side of the handle serving to indicate the sharp demarcation of the sides of the handle around this ridge. Not your usual Philippine knife handle, and I would suggest more of a European trait than a local native feature.

[tom hyle]

I'm not so sure; I see your point in terms of the peined tang, the buttplate, and the two ferules, but I'm not so sure about that ridge as an European feature. It compares to sharpish/raised ridges on handles on knives and spears from Japan. It also seems to relate to the way on some Visayan octagon section handles the most forward side of the octagon is so narrow as to almost be an edge, and some even view them as, and some even are, heptagonal. Also (and I think related to the Visayan ones I just mentioned in some measure; in this feature), a ridge running down the finger edge is seen on the "planar ukiran" k(e)ris handles with the heptagonal cross-sections. Also, it resembles the sharpish edge at the front of the hoof on some hoof pommels, and this is real noticeable if you think of ones with a rear ferule and buttplate fitted to the hoof. On the other hand, a similarly oriented egg-shape cross section is often recommended in knife making instruction writings in N America; on the hind leg, I don't neccessarily see it that much on old European stuff that comes to mind? The widest part of some sabre hilts with "swelled center" shaped grips.....axe handles......perhaps it is even a Philippine influence on the modern N American stuff.

[tom hyle]

Now, I'm gonna rip the lid off my own clam bake, and tell you the big dividing difference between matulis and talibon blades (other than the tang): On the talibon the spine and the cutting edge kink forward at pretty much one same point, but on matulis, as you move down the sword toward the point, first the cutting edge curves forward, then, inches later, the spine, which creates a long widened cutting area in kind of the middle of the blade. Matulis' blade looks like a talibon (or a Laz bichaq/Black Sea yatagan) scabbard.

[Conogre]

This thread obviously originated during my "haitus" but I strongly feel that these are definitely Luzon knives made to be used as general purpose pieces, equally tool and weapon, with the flattened tip possibly, but not definitely having something to do with Spanish regulations from time to time.
Thesr's always a chance, of course, that the style was introduced in Spanish trafficking between S. America and Spain and then "made their own" over time, but my question here is how long does a particular style have to be in common use in a country before it's accepted as peculiar to that country?
That sort have thing has been going on since the advent of trade, conquests and warfare and often led to the actual evolution of many weapons types.
I also feel that the "tear drop" handle has been apparent, in one form or another on many Philippino swords for a considerable period and may actually be an indication of a piece whose primary use is oriented toward true weaponry as it allows for "feeling" the correct orientation in the dark, without having to visually inspect it, something not normally required of a tool.
I've seen a small number of these over the past few years and even had one here, which I sadly traded off.
One factor on many that seems evident to me is the angled end often combined with a bellied blade rarely, if ever, shows any sign of having been shortened, but rather the opposite, often with a miniscule swelling to the end indicating that it was forged that way.
One last comment.....the marking on the blade of the piece that started this thread would seem EXTREMELY appropriate on a captured piece, either by a spanish soldier, or equally, even a spanish speaking soldier of another country while it would seem to be improper for an arsenal type weapon.
Mike