Pre-colombian weapons anyone?

[apolaki]

HI,

Does anyone have interests in Pre-colombian weaponary, I found an Incan Tumi, but i know its very likely a modern replica, because as someone stated I have a fondness of finding items from that era.. LOL

=/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by apolaki

HI,

Does anyone have interests in Pre-colombian weaponary, I found an Incan Tumi, but i know its very likely a modern replica, because as someone stated I have a fondness of finding items from that era.. LOL

=/

Well now Apolaki....thats esoteric!!! and I wish you all the best in finding weapons of this period and as you have noted, a tumi would truly most likely be a modern replica.

Since you've brought these up though, the original 'tumi' or sacrificial knives for the sacrifice of llama were from the Inca culture which originated about 1200 AD in Peru near Cuzco, and probably thier predecessors. These very ornamental knives with semicircular blade were also used for the enigmatic skull trepanations. While the Inca culture ended with the Spanish conquest in the 16th century, the cultures and traditions are still held by ethnic groups such as Quechuas and Aymara.
I'm not sure if these cultures still use the tumi in modern times, but probably still do produce them in a commercial sense, and it is said to hang one on the wall is good luck.

In looking at these semi circular knives, they reminded me of the knives of similar shape blade used as utility knives by various eskimo groups, and termed the 'ulu'. These have ancestry dating back to at least 2500BC and used blades of slate with bone handles. In the study of anthropology the migrations of early man from Asia to the Americas is continuously being reconsidered and the movements of tribal people in South American regions seem being found earlier than earlier believed. It is interesting to note the similarity of these blades, and somewhat compelling to consider the possibility of such ancient ancestry from the early migrations.

Best regards,
Jim

[apolaki]

Hi Jim,

Incidently, i did find a tumi.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by apolaki

.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

Hi apolaki,

Try to acquire items from people of the forum. You could ask for something in the swapforum. If people want to sell what you are asking for, they can sent you pics and prices. It would be more expensive, but if you buy from respected forumites (you can find them when you follow the threads, or look with the search-button), you might get what you want, and it is a quite reliable way to collect.


Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hi Jim,

Incidently, i did find a tumi.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

Hi Apolaki,
Thats really an attractive piece, and you're not the only one. I tend to pick up touristy souveniers in our travels (to my wifes dismay!!) but they have to be very small the shocks in our RV are at the limit with the books!!

Maurice's suggestion is well placed, following the threads here will put you in touch with many members well versed in all manner of weapon forms, and accordingly will usually offer assistance with questions when you seek to acquire examples. As always, the most important weapon to any collector is knowledge BEFORE buying!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Found this Wooden sword imbeded with flint or obsidian flakes used for cutting. I saw something on the history channel last year on it. It seemed to be a very effective weapon against bare flesh.

Lew

[fearn]

I like them, but I don't collect originals. I'm more interested in learning about them.

The experimental archeology movement has been having a lot of fun making these weapons, so it's possible to purchase functioning atlatls and such. Because the originals are often in mediocre shape, it's interesting to see and work with replicas.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent example posted by Lew! and the text accompanying the macuahuitl in Burton's "Book of the Sword" gives a great overview on these Aztec weapons. It is unfortunate that the last surviving example of these obsidian bladed broadswords was destroyed in the disastrous fire in the Armeria Real in Madrid in 1884 (ironically in the same year that Burton's book was published). Along with it was the accompanying polearms also with obsidian blades known as the 'tepoztopilli'.

As Fearn has noted, there is great interest in the atlatl, which is a long arrow launched with a short pole basically, that also exists from prehistoric times. In our travels through Montana we came through a small town named Havre, where there remains an archaeological site where the prehistoric native inhabitants in hunting bison would drive the herd off a cliff, and harvest the valuable means of their survival.
At the site, there were people demonstrating the use of these atlatl, and it was amazing how effective they were.

Like Fearn, I do not collect originals, nor weapons at all any longer, but am fascinated in learning about them, and seeing the replicas used like this gives great illustration of how many weapon forms developed through the millenia.

Best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Like Fearn, I do not collect originals, nor weapons at all any longer.

Best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Say it ain't so Jim

Isn't there some rule that you have to own/collect some type of antique weapon to be a member of this forum.

Lew


LOL !
Actually...I was grandfathered in ! I sort of collected for years but pretty much ended a few years ago, I was pretty much done and found I cared more about learning about weapons, not especially owning them. It was kinda like the day I sold my 'vette', just time. I get all the joy of seeing all the great stuff you guys get, and love learning from them....keep 'em comin'!

All the best,
Jim


Uh..I meant to quote, not edit...bonk! I did say 'grandfathered' didnt I ?

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since you've brought these up though, the original 'tumi' or sacrificial knives for the sacrifice of llama were from the Inca culture which originated about 1200 AD in Peru near Cuzco, and probably thier predecessors. These very ornamental knives with semicircular blade were also used for the enigmatic skull trepanations.

I don´t think this kind of metal piece has been used to trepanate or to sacrifice. The original piece must be made of obsidian, as the metals worked on pre-colombian times were very soft.

Maybe the last macahuítl known by an english spoken writter was destroyed. I think there are others on mexican museums and collections.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I don´t think this kind of metal piece has been used to trepanate or to sacrifice. The original piece must be made of obsidian, as the metals worked on pre-colombian times were very soft.

Maybe the last macahuítl known by an english spoken writter was destroyed. I think there are others on mexican museums and collections.
Regards

Gonzalo

You're right Gonzalo, my reference to the original tumi did not include that the blades were obsidian, thank you for noticing that.

I am delighted to hear that the two ancient weapons lost in the fire in Madrid were not the last examples, and it would be great to know where other authentic original examples might be found. It is indeed a great disadvantage to not speak other languages, as there are so many important resources beyond the western scope.

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

While I agree that most of the trepanation tools were obsidian, the Andeans worked true bronze and arsenic bronze, as well as copper. I think they started working copper alloys around 1000 CE (link to article). The Inka certainly were using metallic maces when the Conquistadors arrived, and they also used bronze in securing their stonework.

I agree that a gold tumi is primarily a symbolic tool, but if they made bronze tumis, those would be very different. Regardless, the major weapons of the Andes were probably slings, bolos, stone headed and wooden clubs, Amazonian style arrows and spears. I haven't seen any reference to suggest that bronze weapons were widespread in the Inkan army, and as far as I can tell, metal weapons were for the wealthy.

Final note: there's a book on Incan martial arts out now, for those interested (link to Amazon). It contains a short chapter on weapons.

my 0.002 centavos

F

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, I got one of these, Inca 15th-16th century. Could possibly be Moche. Looks to be arsenic bronze-has a slight yellow tinge to it which I believe is a characteristic of the material.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent information Fearn! thank you for posting this interesting material. I agree also on the use of obsidian in cutting instruments and weapons, which in the absence of iron and steel would seem desirable in that capacity. I really had never realized how sharp obsidian really was until seeing examples of it.
The use of bronze in this culture would seem well applied to blunt force weapons and other material objects, which brings up the interesting object posted by Lemmy.

Lemmy, would this be an example of mace head? I had never heard of arsenic bronze until Fearn mentioned it, and your post here. In checking into some of the information on this metal, I understood that it is said to be stronger than other alloyed forms of bronze, and that as Fearn has noted, the Andeans were adept at producing it. Apparantly while copper typically has a degree of arsenic present naturally in its deposits, true arsenic bronze is defined by the deliberate addition of arsenic taking its presence to from 2% to 3%.

The presence of arsenic seems disturbing, when thinking of course of its connotation as a poison, but well placed when thinking of its use to strengthen metal for weapons. An interesting note I found suggests that in a number of cultures noted for the use of arsenic bronze, many of the gods ascribed to the art of blacksmithing were depicted lame, apparantly with possible reference to symptoms of arsenic poisoning such as muscular atrophy and loss of reflex. ("Ancient Metallurgy", David K,Jordan, Univ. of Calif. San Diego, March 20, 2006).

It seems unusual that depictions of gods would reflect such earthly and distinctly human detail, and I wonder if the adverse effects of this process were actually known.

Returning to the actual item Lemmy has posted, would this be a mace head, or other symbolic object? It seems I have seen mace heads with this rather cog wheel or gear shape, and I often wonder if the shape has specific purpose or symbolism.

Best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Always glad to do research for you. I don't have a collection like Lemmy's, but at the Museum of Man in San Diego, they've got an interesting exhibit that shows all phases of Andean trepanation, including the skulls. They show trepanned skulls and some stone blades they believe were used in trepanation. They also show skulls from people killed by cogwheel maces, and some of the mace heads, such as Lemmy has. The wounds in the skulls matched the shapes of the cog points.

So, yes, those cogwheel maces were used in battle. Trepanning (cutting a hole in the skull) looks like it was used as a way to repair the damage from a mace blow (among other things). The surgeon would cut around the impacted area and remove them the bone fragments, basically as a way of getting the dent out. Apparently it worked occasionally.

As an aside, one of the cogwheel mace heads at the museum even had a spoke shaped into an axe blade. As I recall, they also had stone cogwheel heads on display. Stone or metal, it's a good design.

Best,

F

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, here's a good site with lots of good photos of pre-columbian wepons, the mace section has all kinds, including the devastating mace/axe that Fearn mentioned.

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Fearn and Lemmy! Great information and resources. This whole topic is pretty much new to me, and really adds new dimension in understanding weapons of relatively much more recent times. I thought I might have seen those cog wheel forms before, but thought it was in something from India or Asia.

It always makes me wonder, why would these mace heads, intended for blunt force attack, have these crenallated edges on a disc? Having seen these outside this context, they almost seem like some ancient machinery (ala Indiana Jones , so why wouldn't they, as maces, just been left smooth?

The material on trepanning is really interesting Fearn. It seems amazing that in these primitive times such 'advanced' (or perhaps daring) surgery was even attempted, and even more so that the patients often survived. I really do appreciate the great information you always find.

All very best regards,
Jim