Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

[ariel]

I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain.
Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up.
By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish.
As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

[tom hyle]

Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it.
Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training.
Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over?
Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

[fearn]

Hi Ariel,

Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree.

Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements.

A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees....

After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer.

Fearn

[Rivkin]

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

[ariel]

Exactly right! The market favors cheap stuff.
I would guess that 99% of amateur martial artists buy cheap but functional replicas made in Taiwan, China etc and do not care about any preservation issues.
A tiny fraction of high-class martial arts afficionados buy custom made blades and even smaller fraction collects the real stuff.
All of them train with wooden/bamboo/plastic sticks being concerned about the safety of both the weapon and the opponent.
Thus, the entire demand for martial arts swords of whatever kind can be satisfied with a single mass-production outfit. Indians can do it now but the Chinese will take over in no time. And that is the end of the tradition, whether we like it or not.
Such an outcome does not make me unhappy since I collect only real stuff. I know that many people will be very sad and I sympathize with them. No offence meant but to each his own.

[Mark]

My hope would be that the sword would return as a status symbol, and/or as a symbol of the connection and appreciation of heritage, in those areas where currently it is not so viewed. I think that the status of the keris in Malaysia is a good example of how a smithing tradition can retain relevance in the modern age. And of course, the nihonto enjoys a similar place in the culture of Japan, but that is what started this discussion.

[tom hyle]

Actually, I think it is the third world that still has the skills. The problem with the overculture, or why swords are "dead" in it, is that it, as a social tenet, considers them dead, considers closerange weapons barbaric, obsolete (this is not always a logical value judgement; they're not technical/magical enough to be nobsolete to the overculture), and primitive, thus it has a force of disarmament toward edged weapons (in addition to its general force of personal disarmament) that tends to quash the market (growing, living, but certainly not what it was 300, 400 years ago, at least relative to populations....), while it's workers are typically (this is insidious, too, IMHO) and increasingly highly specialized, and while highly skilled in the standard practices of their specialties, are discouraged (by market forces) from imaginativeness and from fanatical craftsmanship, and also, are intrinsically isolated from other skills. And the skills, abilities, and lore (knowledge) of making (using) quality swords is not one of the highly valued/often highly paid feilds in said culture, so it exists, and will exist partly/largely as what FC called a "surrogate activity"; the best work and ideas and discoveries and artisans will intrinsically come out of the hobby feild; the amateurs, who work for love, not money. Thus, for instance, it may well be that the only people building truly quality ship models now are people with sharp knives and tiny saws who love it so much they make the whole thing up out of some wood.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

Hello Rivkin ,
Authentic plank on frame ship modeling is very much alive and well in the U.S.
A friend of mine supports his family quite well by building custom models . Some are in museums , some in corporate hq.'s and in the hands of very wealthy individuals .
Not a dying art here .