E-Bay bans all ivory sales!

ariel · 22nd October 2008, 02:50 PM

What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle).
But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika...
I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else?
Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)?
Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)?
There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances.
Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

Rick · 22nd October 2008, 03:11 PM

Sort of a fly-swatter/shotgun approach to Ivory on their part .

Don't worry, things can only get worse .

Atlantia · 22nd October 2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle).
But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika...
I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else?
Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)?
Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)?
There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances.
Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Soon (in the UK) the government will tighten the laws on bladed weapons (specifically to target cheap imported Chinese combat style knives) even though most fatal stabbings in the UK are committed with kitchen knives. I have no doubt that at that time ebay.uk will ban the sale of bladed weapons entirely.

Royston · 22nd October 2008, 03:46 PM

Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species.

Atlantia,

I am with you on this.

Royston

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

kronckew · 22nd October 2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

....

PS
I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

oh, the horror, the poor morrises, how they have been mistreated by the evil englanders, being belled and danced to the point of distinction, and then being hit with them sticky things. why it's as shocking as all them poor polyesters that died to provide someone with a polyester fur coat - there oughta be a law! this could never happen in california.

here we have an evil gang of morris dancers in their traditional gang colours, the remains of a poor morris are on the wall above them.

here we have another, note the variation in their evil gang oriented clothing, this group being armed to the teeth with cudgels, knobkerries and other weapons of mass morris destruction. note the organization of these indoctrinated and practiced evildoers as they head smiling for yet another morris termination.

and here we have a northern variant, the yorkshire longsword morris dancers, armed with their evil and soon to be banned longswords, heading for a ritual decapitation. the poor ritual, a lesser hornless form of morris, they are also almost extinct due to this evil practice. rituals are considered tasty eating by some and often found in supermarkets gourmet section. the labour party has vowed to ban these evil gatherings.

the leader of this gang has just been knocked over by a concerned hero of PETA.

oh, when will the horror cease?

i see ebay still sells polyester fur clothing in spite of the protests by concerned liberals everywhere, oh the humanity!

fearn · 22nd October 2008, 05:14 PM

Hi Ariel,

I happen to agree with Atlantia on this.

If the news article is correct, the US has the biggest black market for endangered species material, primarily ivory, and eBay is the biggest vendor for these products. Therefore, if one wants to conserve elephants, targeting illegal ivory sales on eBay makes sense from a conservation standpoint.

EBay seems to be saying (probably correctly) that they have substantial trouble distinguishing legal from illegal ivory sales, and so they're banning them all, except in cases where it's a trivial amount of ivory, and it's unlikely to be contributing to the current conservation problems. I almost hate to say it, but that's a reasonable strategy for them.

I'd also point out that helps to differentiate between the mainstream conservation groups and the extremists. The mainstream groups have learned the hard way to be pretty pragmatic about getting results. The extremists tend to have a more absolutist policies. The mainstream groups are generally willing to talk and negotiate.

If you want to get angry, you might want to target those who are running the illegal ivory and endangered species markets. They're the ones who are messing things up for the rest of us, and without them, we wouldn't need CITES. Blaming eBay is a bit like blaming a mall for hiring rent-a-cops to chase the gangbangers away.

F

asomotif · 22nd October 2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off.

Personally I have made several complaints about new ''artifacts" that were offered as antique and were made of CITES endangered species.
Not 1 single listing was removed, and I also never received an answer from ebay.
I even once asked a question to CITES about there policy towards ebay and never recieved a supply.
Protecting animals probabaly has a lot to do with politics.

As for ebay banning ivory, politics again. Maybe something to do with stock holders. I am quite sure that selling ivory netsuke from China combined with the (also not allowed) high shippingcharges will continue. with or without ban.

Lets take our own responsibillity and try to avoid buying new ivory objects.
And yes, i am only human and might be tempted, but lets do our best

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2008, 09:37 PM

Great pictures. It is an old thing many suppressed and confident "military by numbers" people encouraged martial training through dance. Here it is completely neutralised. They had fun, possibly to many drinks.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd October 2008, 10:33 PM

The world does not begin and end with ebay.

So what if they ban ivory sales?

Ivory sales have been banned in so many places for so long that this is just another minor annoyance--- and not just ivory sales, in some places and some instances, possession of ivory.

Prior to the CITES restrictions on ivory sales, specifically during the 1970's, ivory keris hilts could be bought in Indonesia for around the same price as wooden keris hilts, price of either depended on quality of workmanship and age, not so much on the material.

Guess what has happened to the price of ivory since the very wise CITES bans came into force?

Yeah, that's right:- same thing as happened to the price of alcohol during prohibition.

Want to push prices up?

BAN IT!!!

As for the protection of elephants, well, anyone notice beef cattle dying out?

Nope.

Why?

Because beef cattle have a use.

Since the ivory bans what has happened with poaching of ivory?

Do elephants have any use at all, except to make some of us---me included---feel good?

I'm all in favour of ensuring that elephants do not die out. I like elephants. Big, impressive, almost human in some respects---not that that is necessarily a recommendation---but yeah, elephants are good guys. Lets make sure they don't all get killed.

But this new age ratbag approach of the tree huggers and kangaroo cuddlers of banning the trade in ivory is simply not defensible in the long term on any logical or rational basis.

22nd October 2008, 03:11 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	IMO Sort of a fly-swatter/shotgun approach to Ivory on their part . Don't worry, things can only get worse .

22nd October 2008, 03:46 PM	#4
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Ebay Bans Ebay could certainly never be accused of evenhandedness or logic in their choice pf policy decision, but I'm prepared to see Ivory banned if it will help to conserve the remaining stocks of endangered species. Atlantia, I am with you on this. Royston PS I see they still allow " Morris Dancing " items.

22nd October 2008, 02:50 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is important in the e-bay stance is it's "matter of principle". Of course, sellers will use Iv@ree etc. Of course, one would quibble about the "amount" ( a full -piano set of ivory keys may be in fact more than a yataghan handle). But we might be facing environmental activists scouring e-bay listings ( including "white bone" and spelling curlicues) and filing official complaints, and those listings will be taken off. This is not my fantasy: there are people who closely follow other categories. Try to sell a real medical human skull or something with a swastika... I think this serves as a precedent whereby E-Bay went above and beyond the internationally-accepted laws. What will prevent it to ban something else? Pakistani rugs (child labor)? Israeli olive wood carvings ( occupation policy)? Turkish waterpipes( promotion of marihuana)? African artefacts ( colonial plunder)? And, yes, bladed weapons ( cruelty and homicide)? There are many political groups pushing their agendas. E-bay just succumbed ( or at least paid lip service) to yet another one. But lip services tend to become real stances. Even paranoiacs have real enemies...

22nd October 2008, 05:14 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, I happen to agree with Atlantia on this. If the news article is correct, the US has the biggest black market for endangered species material, primarily ivory, and eBay is the biggest vendor for these products. Therefore, if one wants to conserve elephants, targeting illegal ivory sales on eBay makes sense from a conservation standpoint. EBay seems to be saying (probably correctly) that they have substantial trouble distinguishing legal from illegal ivory sales, and so they're banning them all, except in cases where it's a trivial amount of ivory, and it's unlikely to be contributing to the current conservation problems. I almost hate to say it, but that's a reasonable strategy for them. I'd also point out that helps to differentiate between the mainstream conservation groups and the extremists. The mainstream groups have learned the hard way to be pretty pragmatic about getting results. The extremists tend to have a more absolutist policies. The mainstream groups are generally willing to talk and negotiate. If you want to get angry, you might want to target those who are running the illegal ivory and endangered species markets. They're the ones who are messing things up for the rest of us, and without them, we wouldn't need CITES. Blaming eBay is a bit like blaming a mall for hiring rent-a-cops to chase the gangbangers away. F

22nd October 2008, 09:37 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Great pictures. It is an old thing many suppressed and confident "military by numbers" people encouraged martial training through dance. Here it is completely neutralised. They had fun, possibly to many drinks.

22nd October 2008, 10:33 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The world does not begin and end with ebay. So what if they ban ivory sales? Ivory sales have been banned in so many places for so long that this is just another minor annoyance--- and not just ivory sales, in some places and some instances, possession of ivory. Prior to the CITES restrictions on ivory sales, specifically during the 1970's, ivory keris hilts could be bought in Indonesia for around the same price as wooden keris hilts, price of either depended on quality of workmanship and age, not so much on the material. Guess what has happened to the price of ivory since the very wise CITES bans came into force? Yeah, that's right:- same thing as happened to the price of alcohol during prohibition. Want to push prices up? BAN IT!!! As for the protection of elephants, well, anyone notice beef cattle dying out? Nope. Why? Because beef cattle have a use. Since the ivory bans what has happened with poaching of ivory? Do elephants have any use at all, except to make some of us---me included---feel good? I'm all in favour of ensuring that elephants do not die out. I like elephants. Big, impressive, almost human in some respects---not that that is necessarily a recommendation---but yeah, elephants are good guys. Lets make sure they don't all get killed. But this new age ratbag approach of the tree huggers and kangaroo cuddlers of banning the trade in ivory is simply not defensible in the long term on any logical or rational basis.