spanish colonial lances

Gonzalo G · 9th October 2008, 09:50 AM

!Very well stated and based points, Jim! !Excellent! I envy you for the access to all this material. It seems that there are more old archives about Mexico in the USA, than in this country. Many researchers of mexican history have to go to Austin and other places to look for documents of primary sources.

Comanches and apaches could infltrate North Mexico because the existing very low density of population, so they have ample ways to move, atack and retreat, though there were apache mezcalero villages in the State of Coahuila-Texas in which the indians lived peacefully. The Central Mexico was very densely populated. Raiders would be liquidated easily. The conquest was done with the support, among others, of one of the most ferocious indian people, the tlaxcaltecatl, never conquered by the meshica, now known as the aztec (thus, the name of Méshico or México, composed by the words "meshica" and "co", meaning the place of the meshica). Those indians were very efficient in the fight against the comanche and apache raiders.

The military lances I have seen on the mexican museums, tend to be of the heavy type, but I don´t know to which degree this examples are representative of the uses prevalent in the cavalry. Mostly, they are lances and spontoons from the War of Intervention, against frech invaders.
My regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2008, 06:07 PM

Hi Gonzalo,
Thank you so much for those very kind words. I work very hard to discover all I can on these things so I can share the information here, and we can all learn from discussing it. I have mostly just computer access to much of the data, but still have notes and material from research done on Spanish Colonial weapons over many years. It has always been one of my favorite subjects as I have always admired the colorful histories of Mexico and Spain, and grew up in Southern California. My passion has always been fueled by the memory of a treasured old espada ancha I owned in my youth.

Presently I am in Arizona, and have travelled in areas deeply endowed with this rich history, and am heading toward New Mexico. One cannot help but imagine the history that seems to be present everywhere, and you can almost see the soldados and vaqueros in the breathtaking scenery, as if in a time machine.

Thank you for the information on the Meshica, and this information I had not been aware of, and it is great learning more on the tribal histories of these groups.

I cannot be sure of the lances variations, but am presuming that the heavy ones were line cavalry examples, where types used by irregular troops or even many frontier soldados were lighter and possibly shorter for close in combat. On the frontier, as in most cases in front line combat forces, need exceeds regulation, and variations of weapons would likely increase. I am always amazed at the ingenuity and industrious creativity of frontier armourers and blacksmiths.

Thank you again Gonzalo!
All best regards,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 11th October 2008, 05:34 AM

Thankyouuuu, Jim. I see what do you mean...I have found some sources.
My best regards

Gonzalo

pallas · 11th October 2008, 08:26 AM

i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."

Jim McDougall · 12th October 2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."

Thank you Pallas! that is helpful information, and really does support the profound contact between the American Indian tribes and those as far as Mesoamerica. I am presently in northern Arizona, and visited old Sinagua Indian ruins, which date into the 15th century AD. Much of the data that is provided mentions the trade contact of these tribes with the tribes far into Mexico and Mesoamerica .

All very best regards,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 12th October 2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."

A books says so, but on which grounds? Many false things have been said on books, and many with some interest. There are not records of such raids on the primary sources. When did the kiowas did so? Where the historian get this information? Does he has a valid source?

This not the place to dicuss such sujects, but I find this texan wiritter biased by personal interpretations of the available information, in my opinion. Without proof better than his word, or than his personal interpretation of another´s statements, it can´t be accepted. You should consider that Guatemala is THOUSDANS of miles far from Texas, and that it could not have some sense to make a raid so far, apart from many other material considerations related with their trip and survival. It couldn´t be ECONOMIC, and economy traces limits to human behaviour, as it is the root of survival.

It must be stated that San Luis Potosí, the limit of the indian raids, has indeed a big region with monkeys and parrots (there are parrots even in Coahuila, on the border with Texas). This region is named "La Huasteca". It is, also, hundreds of miles from North Texas. But it is VERY far from Guatemala and still far from Central México. I think there is a confussion, and the author jumped into conclussions. Anyway, he did also make a great job in stuying indian nomadic cultures.
Regards

Gonzalo G

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2008, 10:30 PM

I think Gonzalo makes excellent points. One must consider the literature in which these rather improbable events are presented, and whether or not the author is citing them as fact, or colorful romaticized tales. If the book noted is a history discussing these tribes, then the description of the events should have the source of the data cited. If it is an adventure narrative or travel item then of course, this should be qualified in the wording.

Gonzalo has presented some interesting facts that do offer possibility for the unusual accounts suggesting raids of such long distance, and that the presence of this wildlife need not be from as far as Mesoamerica. I recall reading some very exciting books in researching the famed American 'Bowie Knife', including one titled "The Iron Mistress". This colorful story presents a mixture of fact and a good measure of folklore, and in this type of narrative it becomes difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. It was however, great material for a movie!
This very phenomenon..folklore...has led to countless misperceptions in the study of not only weapons, but clearly history itself.

Indian folklore is inclusive in their wonderful history, which is considered oral tradition, and in many ways of course includes not only historical and legendary events, but many of profound religious belief. The drawback feom a historical point of view with oral tradition, is that stories tend to gain varying degree of embellishment through time, and deep respect and admiration of forebearers often inadvertantly adds considerable dimension referring to them.
This does not mean that oral tradition in Native American history is untrue or questionable, but recognizes that metaphoric context can often present unique challenges in scholarly perspective. My deep fascination in American Indian history in only exceeded by my profound respect for thier culture.

I think that the Comanches and thier nominal allies, the Kiowa, probably did raid into Mexico to the degree described by Gonzalo, but if any raid by them did reach that much further into Mexico or Mesoamerica, it would most likely have been a singular event. Thier primary purpose in raiding was to obtain horses, and these were readily available wherever the Spanish were, in Texas, New Mexico, and northern Mexico. I cannot imagine why they would travel this great distance to obtain what was available much closer.

Travelling great distances however, was not an all unusual in historical times, as I am discovering more and more, and these tribes did travel more often toward Canada. The evidence of trade items with southwestern tribes from faraway places, including Mesoamerica, were most likely obtained through intertribal contact and networking, rather than singular forays of the entire distance. This is much the same in the history of trade worldwide.

All best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 20th November 2008, 09:16 PM

I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

9th October 2008, 09:50 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Very well stated and based points, Jim! !Excellent! I envy you for the access to all this material. It seems that there are more old archives about Mexico in the USA, than in this country. Many researchers of mexican history have to go to Austin and other places to look for documents of primary sources. Comanches and apaches could infltrate North Mexico because the existing very low density of population, so they have ample ways to move, atack and retreat, though there were apache mezcalero villages in the State of Coahuila-Texas in which the indians lived peacefully. The Central Mexico was very densely populated. Raiders would be liquidated easily. The conquest was done with the support, among others, of one of the most ferocious indian people, the tlaxcaltecatl, never conquered by the meshica, now known as the aztec (thus, the name of Méshico or México, composed by the words "meshica" and "co", meaning the place of the meshica). Those indians were very efficient in the fight against the comanche and apache raiders. The military lances I have seen on the mexican museums, tend to be of the heavy type, but I don´t know to which degree this examples are representative of the uses prevalent in the cavalry. Mostly, they are lances and spontoons from the War of Intervention, against frech invaders. My regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 9th October 2008 at 10:08 AM.

9th October 2008, 06:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,914	Hi Gonzalo, Thank you so much for those very kind words. I work very hard to discover all I can on these things so I can share the information here, and we can all learn from discussing it. I have mostly just computer access to much of the data, but still have notes and material from research done on Spanish Colonial weapons over many years. It has always been one of my favorite subjects as I have always admired the colorful histories of Mexico and Spain, and grew up in Southern California. My passion has always been fueled by the memory of a treasured old espada ancha I owned in my youth. Presently I am in Arizona, and have travelled in areas deeply endowed with this rich history, and am heading toward New Mexico. One cannot help but imagine the history that seems to be present everywhere, and you can almost see the soldados and vaqueros in the breathtaking scenery, as if in a time machine. Thank you for the information on the Meshica, and this information I had not been aware of, and it is great learning more on the tribal histories of these groups. I cannot be sure of the lances variations, but am presuming that the heavy ones were line cavalry examples, where types used by irregular troops or even many frontier soldados were lighter and possibly shorter for close in combat. On the frontier, as in most cases in front line combat forces, need exceeds regulation, and variations of weapons would likely increase. I am always amazed at the ingenuity and industrious creativity of frontier armourers and blacksmiths. Thank you again Gonzalo! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th October 2008 at 07:23 AM.

13th October 2008, 10:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,914	I think Gonzalo makes excellent points. One must consider the literature in which these rather improbable events are presented, and whether or not the author is citing them as fact, or colorful romaticized tales. If the book noted is a history discussing these tribes, then the description of the events should have the source of the data cited. If it is an adventure narrative or travel item then of course, this should be qualified in the wording. Gonzalo has presented some interesting facts that do offer possibility for the unusual accounts suggesting raids of such long distance, and that the presence of this wildlife need not be from as far as Mesoamerica. I recall reading some very exciting books in researching the famed American 'Bowie Knife', including one titled "The Iron Mistress". This colorful story presents a mixture of fact and a good measure of folklore, and in this type of narrative it becomes difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. It was however, great material for a movie! This very phenomenon..folklore...has led to countless misperceptions in the study of not only weapons, but clearly history itself. Indian folklore is inclusive in their wonderful history, which is considered oral tradition, and in many ways of course includes not only historical and legendary events, but many of profound religious belief. The drawback feom a historical point of view with oral tradition, is that stories tend to gain varying degree of embellishment through time, and deep respect and admiration of forebearers often inadvertantly adds considerable dimension referring to them. This does not mean that oral tradition in Native American history is untrue or questionable, but recognizes that metaphoric context can often present unique challenges in scholarly perspective. My deep fascination in American Indian history in only exceeded by my profound respect for thier culture. I think that the Comanches and thier nominal allies, the Kiowa, probably did raid into Mexico to the degree described by Gonzalo, but if any raid by them did reach that much further into Mexico or Mesoamerica, it would most likely have been a singular event. Thier primary purpose in raiding was to obtain horses, and these were readily available wherever the Spanish were, in Texas, New Mexico, and northern Mexico. I cannot imagine why they would travel this great distance to obtain what was available much closer. Travelling great distances however, was not an all unusual in historical times, as I am discovering more and more, and these tribes did travel more often toward Canada. The evidence of trade items with southwestern tribes from faraway places, including Mesoamerica, were most likely obtained through intertribal contact and networking, rather than singular forays of the entire distance. This is much the same in the history of trade worldwide. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th October 2008 at 12:36 AM.

11th October 2008, 05:34 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thankyouuuu, Jim. I see what do you mean...I have found some sources. My best regards Gonzalo

11th October 2008, 08:26 AM	#4
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads: "kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."

20th November 2008, 09:16 PM	#8
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry. As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.