ZIZ ZAG Wootz Ladder Pattern (Part II)

ALEX · 28th September 2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks Rand,
I agree, the rozes do not look intentionally planted, and appear randomly formed on the blade. Thank you for your comments, the zig-zag pattern is rare indeed, but what marvelled me most is the "cross-ladder" pattern on only one side of the blade - an unknown (to me) pattern, and I guess the one which would be very hard to make.

rand · 28th September 2008, 07:27 PM

Hey Alex,

Manfred Sasche may have the best explanation for the making of transverse lines in metal in his book "Damascus Steel". Attached are a few photo's from his book showing possible techniques for producing a transverse line. they would be the same technique no matter what direction the line go's. Of course at the time of manufacture these were very closely guarded and valuable secrets.

rand

ALEX · 28th September 2008, 11:35 PM

Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well.
I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

rand · 29th September 2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well.
I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

Hey Alex,

My opinion is any multiple of twenty would be associated with the kirk-nar-daban or ladder pattern. Other than that would call them rungs or in the style of a ladder pattern.

rand

ward · 29th September 2008, 08:48 PM

Great dagger Alex.
Kirk Narduban is a miss spelling from Turkish Kirk Merdeven Forty Steps I think its in the Pinchot shamshir article. Ive seen just as many sword blades that have 40 steps as others that dont but never seen less than 20. On a dagger theres less space I dont think it matters so long as steps are clear and equally spaced. Anybody wants to sell a ladder blade because it has less than 40 steps lmk.

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2008, 01:46 AM

Cutting the ingot and opening up like in the photo will NOT produce any rungs...it is a perpetuated myth and a lot of extra work for no benefit.

Ric

28th September 2008, 07:27 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Transverse Lines in Wootz Hey Alex, Manfred Sasche may have the best explanation for the making of transverse lines in metal in his book "Damascus Steel". Attached are a few photo's from his book showing possible techniques for producing a transverse line. they would be the same technique no matter what direction the line go's. Of course at the time of manufacture these were very closely guarded and valuable secrets. rand Attached Images

28th September 2008, 05:24 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Rand, I agree, the rozes do not look intentionally planted, and appear randomly formed on the blade. Thank you for your comments, the zig-zag pattern is rare indeed, but what marvelled me most is the "cross-ladder" pattern on only one side of the blade - an unknown (to me) pattern, and I guess the one which would be very hard to make.

28th September 2008, 11:35 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well. I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

29th September 2008, 08:48 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Great dagger Alex. Kirk Narduban is a miss spelling from Turkish Kirk Merdeven Forty Steps I think its in the Pinchot shamshir article. Ive seen just as many sword blades that have 40 steps as others that dont but never seen less than 20. On a dagger theres less space I dont think it matters so long as steps are clear and equally spaced. Anybody wants to sell a ladder blade because it has less than 40 steps lmk.

1st October 2008, 01:46 AM	#6
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Cutting the ingot and opening up like in the photo will NOT produce any rungs...it is a perpetuated myth and a lot of extra work for no benefit. Ric