true or false: most viking blades where frankish

celtan · 23rd September 2008, 11:24 PM

Howdy Jim et Chevaliere,

I understand the Arabs were able to develop such nice blades in Spain because they took advantage ot the renowned and world acclaimed metallurgical arts that had been developed by Celts and Iberians.

Remember how the romans adopted the celtic spata and turned it into their gladivs hispaniensis?. Also the spanish falcata, a local version of the greek kopis used in both the carthaginian and greek colonies in Spain, was the terror of the legionaries. In fact, spanish mercenaries serving in the roman armies kept on using them when they were taken to conquer England.

The arabs were great at developing and adapting for their own use the ideas and techniques they found in their road to conquest, but not terribly original otherwise.

Regards

M

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 01:35 AM

i was about to say the same thing celtan just said. the arabs where known to have highly desired frankish swords above their own weapons (the only reason i can guess for this was that the frankish weapons where of better quality) and i think that is wy the carolingians forbade their export (at least to their biggest enemy, the abbasid/omyyad caliphates)

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 01:43 AM

i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect.

also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

celtan · 24th September 2008, 02:31 AM

Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs.

One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships.

Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")...

During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual.

In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently...

"Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho"
Don Quixote

Well, let's go back to issues germane...

: )

[chevalier]

...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

Lee · 25th September 2008, 01:51 AM

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Ed · 25th September 2008, 01:37 PM

Seems like that small sample issue again.

celtan · 25th September 2008, 01:46 PM

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

LOL! That truly is a 'veddy interesting little book' !

Actually it was the very first book on weapons I ever owned, I think it was back in 1965 (the book was published in '62). It really is very good, and unleashed a lifelong passion for me.
Another wonderful book on this subject is "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Pierce (copyright 2002, Lee A. Jones, Ewart Oakeshott, and Ian Pierce).
Lee was instrumental in producing this outstanding reference, in addition to authoring two of the key chapters.
Actually I knew of Lee's important work on Viking weapons before I actually met him years later, due to the important article he wrote in 1997, "The Serpent in the Sword: Pattern Welding in Early Medieval Swords".

I hope we will see some more discussion on these fantastic weapons...which truly are addicting!!

25th September 2008, 01:51 AM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	My suspicions... I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality. My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion. I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture. Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds. Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

23rd September 2008, 11:24 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Howdy Jim et Chevaliere, I understand the Arabs were able to develop such nice blades in Spain because they took advantage ot the renowned and world acclaimed metallurgical arts that had been developed by Celts and Iberians. Remember how the romans adopted the celtic spata and turned it into their gladivs hispaniensis?. Also the spanish falcata, a local version of the greek kopis used in both the carthaginian and greek colonies in Spain, was the terror of the legionaries. In fact, spanish mercenaries serving in the roman armies kept on using them when they were taken to conquer England. The arabs were great at developing and adapting for their own use the ideas and techniques they found in their road to conquest, but not terribly original otherwise. Regards M

24th September 2008, 01:35 AM	#2
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i was about to say the same thing celtan just said. the arabs where known to have highly desired frankish swords above their own weapons (the only reason i can guess for this was that the frankish weapons where of better quality) and i think that is wy the carolingians forbade their export (at least to their biggest enemy, the abbasid/omyyad caliphates)

24th September 2008, 01:43 AM	#3
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect. also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

24th September 2008, 02:31 AM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs. One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships. Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")... During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual. In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently... "Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho" Don Quixote Well, let's go back to issues germane... : ) [chevalier] ...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

25th September 2008, 01:37 PM	#6
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 260	Seems like that small sample issue again.