FYI The production of crucible Damascus steel

Jens Nordlunde · 7th April 2005, 09:37 PM

Hi Ann,

When and how will 'crucible' steel end up as cast steel?
At one point you wrote something about this subject, but I think it should be explained more in detail.

Jens

Ann Feuerbach · 8th April 2005, 09:39 PM

Ah, yes. this is a particular problem in Russian, as I believe bulat means both cast steel and crucible steel. Primarily it is semantics: by definition cast steel is cast, ie: poured into a mold. In cast steel, usually premade steel is remelted in a crucible, rather than made in it.
Crucible steel is steel made in a crucible. Traditionally it is not cast (poured). However, what happens if the craftsmen put too much carbon into his crucible? The product can be cast iron. There is really no reason why a tradtional craftsmen could not have "cast" crucible steel or "cast iron". Just lack of evidence. Casting crucible steel would cause quick solidification, small dendrites and probably no pattern. But it could be done.

tom hyle · 9th April 2005, 03:58 PM

Fascinating and so much thanks to everyone!
Ann, "cast steel" is not steel which has been cast. It is a specific early industrial product (patented in England in 1749, I think) called "acero fino" ie. "fine steel" in Spainish (a freind has a Spainish language degree, and she said "fino" has all the same shadings of meaning in Spainish as does "fine" in English.) I've never made either. From my readings it seems to me that the big distinguishment of cast steel (also cast-steel, etc.) from "Eastern"/Tartaric crucible steel, or at least from blister steel, etc. was that it fully melted in the alloying process, while the European blister steel, sheer steel, etc. were alloyed at welding heat, some types in a crucible, which sort of "pudding"ed together, and had to then be hammered down to further join it and folded for homogeneity; don't know enough about Tartar steel to know how much this crosses over to it, or to what specific type of traditional European steel it most closely relates; shear steel I think.
Modern steel production is a full-melt process often and even usually involving (thankfully for my part, except when someone melts an old blade) recycled steel (different percents of different scrap items are allowed for different classes of industrial product), but its product is not "cast steel". Last I heard cast steel may still be produced in Sweden, but the last I heard was some sort of bad news involving this.....

Wrought iron still comes out of Sweden, I read, too.
What of Japanese "blue steel"; anyone know what that is? High carbon, obviously; at a guess, real high, like cast steel.

Ann Feuerbach · 10th April 2005, 05:28 PM

Thanks Tom for the info on cast steel. All this terminology can be such a problem. What would you call ancient Chinese cast iron which has been decarborized while liquid to make it steel, and then it is cast? Is this not cast steel too? (hence my working definition). We really should go back to the term in the original language in which these processes were undertaken so we are certain what is meant. Steel production and nomenclature is such a grey area, where does one stop and the other begin?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:19 PM

Yeah, I agree; the problem is that W European overculture industry, as is its way, made its own efficient working definition of a phrase that has a seperable, and perhaps even older/foreign traditional or simply linguistic/logical meaning. Thus "cast steel" (you could quote it, "per se" it, "caststeel" or "cast-steel" or "acero fino", which I was questioning my friend is it fine grained or fine quality and she said you can't tell because "fino" exactly equals "fine".....) is a type of cast steel, if you will. Doubled shear steel (or any double/doubled steel) is steel that has been doubled; ie folded; triple steel AFAIK has no tightly defineable meaning, though it may imply many foldings or folding together of three different bars to form a billet; speculating. I think my brother has etched marked shear steel to a wootz-like crystally pattern. I also think he may have a spring-tempered wootz kard, though I don't remember that for sure. (If you think I'm fascinated with spring temper you don't know my brother!

) I'll attempt to question him or get him to read this.
There came to be something in the legalistic/industrial definition of "cast-steel" that included the crucible had to be below a certain size, and the ingredients were famously balanced by intuitive art as much as by any precise or scientific analysis, which was levelled as a criticism by the early large-batch full-melt industrial steel proponants, of course.

9th April 2005, 03:58 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	cast steel Fascinating and so much thanks to everyone! Ann, "cast steel" is not steel which has been cast. It is a specific early industrial product (patented in England in 1749, I think) called "acero fino" ie. "fine steel" in Spainish (a freind has a Spainish language degree, and she said "fino" has all the same shadings of meaning in Spainish as does "fine" in English.) I've never made either. From my readings it seems to me that the big distinguishment of cast steel (also cast-steel, etc.) from "Eastern"/Tartaric crucible steel, or at least from blister steel, etc. was that it fully melted in the alloying process, while the European blister steel, sheer steel, etc. were alloyed at welding heat, some types in a crucible, which sort of "pudding"ed together, and had to then be hammered down to further join it and folded for homogeneity; don't know enough about Tartar steel to know how much this crosses over to it, or to what specific type of traditional European steel it most closely relates; shear steel I think. Modern steel production is a full-melt process often and even usually involving (thankfully for my part, except when someone melts an old blade) recycled steel (different percents of different scrap items are allowed for different classes of industrial product), but its product is not "cast steel". Last I heard cast steel may still be produced in Sweden, but the last I heard was some sort of bad news involving this..... Wrought iron still comes out of Sweden, I read, too. What of Japanese "blue steel"; anyone know what that is? High carbon, obviously; at a guess, real high, like cast steel. Last edited by tom hyle; 9th April 2005 at 04:22 PM. Reason: punctuation

10th April 2005, 10:19 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, I agree; the problem is that W European overculture industry, as is its way, made its own efficient working definition of a phrase that has a seperable, and perhaps even older/foreign traditional or simply linguistic/logical meaning. Thus "cast steel" (you could quote it, "per se" it, "caststeel" or "cast-steel" or "acero fino", which I was questioning my friend is it fine grained or fine quality and she said you can't tell because "fino" exactly equals "fine".....) is a type of cast steel, if you will. Doubled shear steel (or any double/doubled steel) is steel that has been doubled; ie folded; triple steel AFAIK has no tightly defineable meaning, though it may imply many foldings or folding together of three different bars to form a billet; speculating. I think my brother has etched marked shear steel to a wootz-like crystally pattern. I also think he may have a spring-tempered wootz kard, though I don't remember that for sure. (If you think I'm fascinated with spring temper you don't know my brother! ) I'll attempt to question him or get him to read this. There came to be something in the legalistic/industrial definition of "cast-steel" that included the crucible had to be below a certain size, and the ingredients were famously balanced by intuitive art as much as by any precise or scientific analysis, which was levelled as a criticism by the early large-batch full-melt industrial steel proponants, of course. Last edited by tom hyle; 11th April 2005 at 06:44 PM.

7th April 2005, 09:37 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ann, When and how will 'crucible' steel end up as cast steel? At one point you wrote something about this subject, but I think it should be explained more in detail. Jens

8th April 2005, 09:39 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Ah, yes. this is a particular problem in Russian, as I believe bulat means both cast steel and crucible steel. Primarily it is semantics: by definition cast steel is cast, ie: poured into a mold. In cast steel, usually premade steel is remelted in a crucible, rather than made in it. Crucible steel is steel made in a crucible. Traditionally it is not cast (poured). However, what happens if the craftsmen put too much carbon into his crucible? The product can be cast iron. There is really no reason why a tradtional craftsmen could not have "cast" crucible steel or "cast iron". Just lack of evidence. Casting crucible steel would cause quick solidification, small dendrites and probably no pattern. But it could be done.

10th April 2005, 05:28 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks Tom for the info on cast steel. All this terminology can be such a problem. What would you call ancient Chinese cast iron which has been decarborized while liquid to make it steel, and then it is cast? Is this not cast steel too? (hence my working definition). We really should go back to the term in the original language in which these processes were undertaken so we are certain what is meant. Steel production and nomenclature is such a grey area, where does one stop and the other begin?