ketland sabers

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ahhh....the rare, elusive and mysterious 'Ketland Sabres', much the kith and kin of the Blucher Sabre's and Sinclair Sabres !

This really had me going a minute as I tried to recall where I've seen the Ketland moniker. Then I remembered the name Ketland & Co. which is of course commonly seen on flintlocks often produced for North American trade. Apparantly this firm produced trade guns and other weaponry going to America, and I believe they sent swords as well, but I think the question is..whether any of the swords were so marked. Have you seen examples with markings Chevalier?
While the guns were intended for American Indian tribes primarilyand the locks clearly stamped, the swords presumably were retailed to American military officers, and were probably much like the excellent example Manuel Luis shows here with the 'seven ball' eagle head hilt.

I think the real mystery with these five and seven ball hilts, is what sort of symbolism might be held in the numeric of the ball decoration. There was an article in the "Journal of the Arms and Armour Society" writtenback in the 60's I believe, and the same question was posed, though suggestions were inconclusive. I was as usual, completely intrigued by such esoterica, and tried to come up with solutions. Brian Robson suggested in communication that is was simply aesthetic, but in a society as steeped in tradition and symbolism as that of Great Britain, I found that simplicity hard to fathom.

If there are any of the trade swords handled by (William) Ketland & Co. that are marked with the name I would very much to see them posted here.While many of the outfitters and retail firms did mark sword blades, it seems likely that many weren't. J.J.Runkel, who was of course a key purveyor in this period, did typically mark his weapons obtained from Solingen, but many were left unmarked if I understand correctly.

Not really to do with the thread but some background on Ketland & Co.
The firm of W Ketland (Ketland & Co) originates in Birmingham, England in 1740, and actually make very high quality Guns and pistols. As with most gunmakers they also made what were known as "Trade guns", usually of lower quality, and not finished as well. The Ketland private mark which was stamped on his pieces, was in fact the precurser of the modern Birmingham Proof Mark, which appears on all English made firearms which have been proved at that Proof House. There is also a Proof House in London which of course has its own mark.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding discussion guys! and its great to keep learning more on the wider range of arms, very impressive items you're all displaying as well.

It is important to remember, since it has been brought up, that while we enjoy discussing all forms of arms and armour, we prefer to leave the commercial aspects out of the discussions. Its OK to post and discuss any weapon, as long as its not in a current auction, and please leave any dialogue regarding sale or trade out of the discussion.

Over the years it has been maintained that keeping any mention of selling an item or discussion regarding that or value estimates etc. should be kept to private messages or email. This is one of the reasons we maintain the swap forum also (which seems to be working well!!). It seems that this policy has been so standard here that it has been almost a given for many years, and has seldom been an issue among members in thier compliance, and with a very busy swap forum !

We're here to learn about arms and armour, and in posting and discussing them, information about whether they are for sale or not is irrelevant, and if they are currently being auctioned or sold may lead to problems if comments or opinions may be construed to negatively impact that status.

As far as discussing items before they are up for auction, I think that is OK but the discussion should terminate when it is posted for auction. Straightforward dealing with the matter should be observed, much as Manuel Luis has shown here by divulging intent to auction concerning a weapon he is mentioning.

Actually the same rules and so on that are in place on the Ethnographic Forum are applicable here, and as always, everyones understanding and cooperation are very much appreciated.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Not really to do with the thread but some background on Ketland & Co.
The firm of W Ketland (Ketland & Co) originates in Birmingham, England in 1740, and actually make very high quality Guns and pistols. As with most gunmakers they also made what were known as "Trade guns", usually of lower quality, and not finished as well. The Ketland private mark which was stamped on his pieces, was in fact the precurser of the modern Birmingham Proof Mark, which appears on all English made firearms which have been proved at that Proof House. There is also a Proof House in London which of course has its own mark.
Stu

Outstanding info Stu!!! Thank you very much for the detail on that.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Outstanding info Stu!!! Thank you very much for the detail on that.

Hi Jim, and others interested.
I have amassed over the years quite a reasonable amount of information on English, Irish and Scottish Gunmakers, and also Proof Marks from many countries--not just England. If anyone needs any specific information, they could PM me or if they know my direct email, then thru that. More than happy to share knowledge.
Regards Stu