African ethno sabre for coments

fearn · 23rd August 2008, 11:08 PM

A couple o' comments.

Katana--Woof!

Fernando, Jim, and all,

I agree it's possible that it's a jackal. I'm just trying to figure out how many swords I've seen marked with symbols of chaos and disorder (excluding modern fantasy stuff). It would be like saying that the cross on many European swords was an inverted, satanic cross, or perhaps more accurately, it would be like having Kali on a hindu sword.

While I agree that swords do spread chaos and disorder, more typically, the symbolism on them is protective, not destructive. Even when the swords are being used to spread destruction, I think it's human nature to attribute said destruction to self defense or some positive virtue, rather than deliberately causing disorder. In short hand, "He deserved what he got."

That's why I'm not convinced it's a jackal.

You get into interesting discussions talking with experts across fields. For instance, many academics do not study weaponry, and many martial artists and collectors aren't scholars (though many here are). Sometimes the lack of a common reference frame makes things interesting.

My favorite example was when I was reading the translated titles of moves in a Chinese martial arts set. One move was "Boa constrictor coils around the tree." I told my teacher (who'd translated it) that it couldn't possibly be a boa constrictor. He wouldn't hear of it. The thing he didn't know was that boa constrictors are new world animals only. The word he should have used was python, but to him, a big snake was a big snake, good only for nature shows and chopping. The name wasn't important.

With this dog(-)on sword, it's possible that the Dogon scholar's attribution was influenced by his personal attribution of violence to a sword, rather than by his knowledge of Dogon sword symbolism. I'm not saying he's wrong, it's hard to tell, at this remove, how much he knows specifically about Dogon weaponry.

Finally, Fernando: there are "jackals" in the Arizona desert. Both the four-legged and the two-legged kind are called "coyotes," and I think I trust the four-legged kind a little more these days.

My 0.00002 centavos,

F

Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2008, 11:37 PM

EXTREMELY well said Fearn!!! and you're right, most sword symbolism calls upon protection rather than aggressive chaos (although the names given to swords such as the Viking swords etc. are pretty formidable......my own personal tulwar named 'killer of ceiling fans'!).

I also agree that typically the focus of academics and martial artists (including weapons historians) are worlds apart. I cannot even say how many disappointing times I have tried to find information concerning weaponry from various authors and authorities on art, cultures and anthropology, even archaeologists, and might as well have been speaking in Klingon. It does seem that of late, there have been some advances, but some authors I know writing in these areas and trying to address this perspective often express similar frustrations.

I agree with the note on the scholarly opinion of the gentleman on the possible jackal symbolism. It is a subjective opinion, based presumably on collective knowledge, but undoubtedly carrying influence of personal experience and perspective. Again, a temporal application.

You guys are right about the coyotes out here!!! and they were really loud last night!! (I'm still chuckling about David's reference to good old Wile, dragging around that anvil!!

on the pointy thing thread).

Very good discussion here, regardless of whether or not conclusive, its great to see very sound observations and reasoning, kind of ethnographic weapon forensics.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 24th August 2008, 12:24 AM

I Fearn, thank you for the input.
I completely understand your reasoning on what touches a certain field academic's point of view not having to necessarily been intrinsecal to a issue out of his context. But i would also adventure that, even if he is within the weaponry matter, he might still only offer intelectual conclusions as, in the case of (at least) this sword, the representation of this animal figure might not be the result of a pattern work, but a unique development, therefore impossible or rather hard to be identified by a weapons collector or even a scholar.
When i contacted this person, as i am trying to contact others, was with the hope that, during his researches, he might have seen or even handled objects or images that enabled him to regconize the figure in my sword ... or knew someone able to do it. Instead he offered me his best guess, which i have considered as such, like i have posted above.
In fact, after hearing all the coments posted here and after browsing the Net for all days past, it realy seems as the work in this sword (sabre) looks quicker to be some isolated work than a job following a standard procedure ... this still within the field of speculation.
The jackals in the Arizona desert was a number for Jim, as i knew he had just crossed Tucson, in his RV

.
... but i admit i didn't think of two-legged ones, though

Fernando

PS
I liked the centavos thing

.

fearn · 24th August 2008, 03:59 AM

de nada, Fernando (that about exhausts my Spanish, too).

I agree, it's all subjective, without some information of a tradition or comparable objects. Still, speculation's fun.

Glad you're enjoying the desert Jim. Hope those little song-doggies aren't keeping you up at night.

Best,

Fearn

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2008, 07:21 AM

Thanks Fearn and Fernando!
Well Fearn tomorrow bright and early we're headed north toward Grand Canyon, there are not many of these guys up there. Gotta admit I'll sorta miss the nightly serenade!

It really is beautiful down here, gonna miss that too.

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 30th August 2008, 11:34 AM

The Hornbill image fits with protective symbolism most often associated with swords. As I mentioned before it can be found on many artifacts usually conected to good human endevours. I am still without my PC so have been unable to follow this thread as I would like.

fernando · 30th August 2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The Hornbill image fits with protective symbolism most often associated with swords. As I mentioned before it can be found on many artifacts usually conected to good human endevours. I am still without my PC so have been unable to follow this thread as I would like.

Hi Tim,
I am sorry for your computer still being unavailable; i hope you get it back soon.
I will allways wait for your usualy interesting and usefull material, as no other way it could be.
Let me tell you that so far, the creatures sugested to be represented in this sword pommel, comprise enough variety to open a Zoo. Between the members of this forum and opinnions gathered out there, i have: jackal, wild dog, hornbill, hooded cobra, crocodile, hyena, lizard, deer, gazelle, fox, dog, reptile, praying mantis, and even a skeptical "made this way deliberatly so that the owner can say it's whatever he wants it to be".
After i opened this thread, i have contacted cosmologists, anthropologists, travel agents in Africa and antique arms specialists, as well as other "ists".
The reason for my insistent search is that i haven't yet had an opinnion considered solid by the very person who issues it, nor i had a couple coinciding strong sugestions or decisive verdicts. I am as blank as i was when i started.
Exception made for the hornbill, proposed by you, Tim, with such firmness that makes me consider that must be the thing.
I will be expecting your further material, soon as your PC allows it.
Fernando

23rd August 2008, 11:08 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	A couple o' comments. Katana--Woof! Fernando, Jim, and all, I agree it's possible that it's a jackal. I'm just trying to figure out how many swords I've seen marked with symbols of chaos and disorder (excluding modern fantasy stuff). It would be like saying that the cross on many European swords was an inverted, satanic cross, or perhaps more accurately, it would be like having Kali on a hindu sword. While I agree that swords do spread chaos and disorder, more typically, the symbolism on them is protective, not destructive. Even when the swords are being used to spread destruction, I think it's human nature to attribute said destruction to self defense or some positive virtue, rather than deliberately causing disorder. In short hand, "He deserved what he got." That's why I'm not convinced it's a jackal. You get into interesting discussions talking with experts across fields. For instance, many academics do not study weaponry, and many martial artists and collectors aren't scholars (though many here are). Sometimes the lack of a common reference frame makes things interesting. My favorite example was when I was reading the translated titles of moves in a Chinese martial arts set. One move was "Boa constrictor coils around the tree." I told my teacher (who'd translated it) that it couldn't possibly be a boa constrictor. He wouldn't hear of it. The thing he didn't know was that boa constrictors are new world animals only. The word he should have used was python, but to him, a big snake was a big snake, good only for nature shows and chopping. The name wasn't important. With this dog(-)on sword, it's possible that the Dogon scholar's attribution was influenced by his personal attribution of violence to a sword, rather than by his knowledge of Dogon sword symbolism. I'm not saying he's wrong, it's hard to tell, at this remove, how much he knows specifically about Dogon weaponry. Finally, Fernando: there are "jackals" in the Arizona desert. Both the four-legged and the two-legged kind are called "coyotes," and I think I trust the four-legged kind a little more these days. My 0.00002 centavos, F

23rd August 2008, 11:37 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,214	EXTREMELY well said Fearn!!! and you're right, most sword symbolism calls upon protection rather than aggressive chaos (although the names given to swords such as the Viking swords etc. are pretty formidable......my own personal tulwar named 'killer of ceiling fans'!). I also agree that typically the focus of academics and martial artists (including weapons historians) are worlds apart. I cannot even say how many disappointing times I have tried to find information concerning weaponry from various authors and authorities on art, cultures and anthropology, even archaeologists, and might as well have been speaking in Klingon. It does seem that of late, there have been some advances, but some authors I know writing in these areas and trying to address this perspective often express similar frustrations. I agree with the note on the scholarly opinion of the gentleman on the possible jackal symbolism. It is a subjective opinion, based presumably on collective knowledge, but undoubtedly carrying influence of personal experience and perspective. Again, a temporal application. You guys are right about the coyotes out here!!! and they were really loud last night!! (I'm still chuckling about David's reference to good old Wile, dragging around that anvil!! on the pointy thing thread). Very good discussion here, regardless of whether or not conclusive, its great to see very sound observations and reasoning, kind of ethnographic weapon forensics. All best regards, Jim

24th August 2008, 12:24 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I Fearn, thank you for the input. I completely understand your reasoning on what touches a certain field academic's point of view not having to necessarily been intrinsecal to a issue out of his context. But i would also adventure that, even if he is within the weaponry matter, he might still only offer intelectual conclusions as, in the case of (at least) this sword, the representation of this animal figure might not be the result of a pattern work, but a unique development, therefore impossible or rather hard to be identified by a weapons collector or even a scholar. When i contacted this person, as i am trying to contact others, was with the hope that, during his researches, he might have seen or even handled objects or images that enabled him to regconize the figure in my sword ... or knew someone able to do it. Instead he offered me his best guess, which i have considered as such, like i have posted above. In fact, after hearing all the coments posted here and after browsing the Net for all days past, it realy seems as the work in this sword (sabre) looks quicker to be some isolated work than a job following a standard procedure ... this still within the field of speculation. The jackals in the Arizona desert was a number for Jim, as i knew he had just crossed Tucson, in his RV . ... but i admit i didn't think of two-legged ones, though Fernando PS I liked the centavos thing .

24th August 2008, 03:59 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	de nada, Fernando (that about exhausts my Spanish, too). I agree, it's all subjective, without some information of a tradition or comparable objects. Still, speculation's fun. Glad you're enjoying the desert Jim. Hope those little song-doggies aren't keeping you up at night. Best, Fearn

24th August 2008, 07:21 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,214	Thanks Fearn and Fernando! Well Fearn tomorrow bright and early we're headed north toward Grand Canyon, there are not many of these guys up there. Gotta admit I'll sorta miss the nightly serenade! It really is beautiful down here, gonna miss that too. All the best, Jim

30th August 2008, 11:34 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,846	The Hornbill image fits with protective symbolism most often associated with swords. As I mentioned before it can be found on many artifacts usually conected to good human endevours. I am still without my PC so have been unable to follow this thread as I would like.