a new member in my khanda family

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 11:03 PM

What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual".

The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29).
Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades.

In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas".
In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt".

It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow.

With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted.

Just my opinion based on references at hand.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th August 2008, 04:03 PM

Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations.

Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open.

Dralin, is the blade flexible?

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 07:19 PM

hi all,
at first thanks for all these opinions, it s very intresting to read al these. no fear "atlantia" i like these sword to and it have a good place in my collection. it is not so important for me if it is 50 ore 100 years older ore not. i only would like know as much as possible over the history from these khanda. if it can tell me his story personal so i must not ask. jens, the blade is only (circa) 1,5mm thick but is not so flexible as it shine, it is an good steel and an realy stought blade.
jim you ask if i had also an khanda with an hindu basket hilt in my collection. well there is one. i will post some pictures now. it is an very good khanda( my very first) . the blad is from an very fine wootz damast steel. my camera is not good enough to make an picture from the pattern but i hope you and the other members can see the beautifull features from these sword.

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 07:22 PM

some more pictures...

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2008, 07:54 PM

Absolutely outstanding Stefan!!! and you are doing great with photos, it is wonderful to see the detail.
Note the distinct hybridization in this with the guard of the Hindu basket hilt incorporated into a Indo Muslim style hilt, the quillons under the guard, bulbous grip, disc pommel etc.
Classic examples both!!! Thank you for sharing them.

Tatyana Dianova · 20th August 2008, 09:11 PM

It is a very interesting and educating thread indeed, thank you Jim, Jens and Ward. And of course thank you Stefan for presenting your beautiful and rare swords to all of us.
Jens, you always show absolutely stunning, museum quality pieces as examples which are professionally pictured. I always wanted to ask: are they from your own collection (if it is not a secret)?
Is it a tulwar you show in this thread? Maybe it was already discussed on this forum? If not, please post a whole sword picture, I love to see your swords

Jens Nordlunde · 21st August 2008, 01:09 PM

I have, in a PM, been asked if I have had the stamp translated, and as it may be of interest to others I bring the translation here.

The translation says, ‘God help us in the upcoming victory’. It is more than likely that other blades with the same stamp can be found, as making a stamp could not have been quite easy, so when it was made, it would most likely have been used on several blades.

18th August 2008, 11:03 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual". The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29). Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades. In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas". In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt". It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow. With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted. Just my opinion based on references at hand. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th August 2008 at 11:27 PM.

19th August 2008, 04:03 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations. Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open. Dralin, is the blade flexible? Attached Images

19th August 2008, 07:19 PM	#3
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	hi all, at first thanks for all these opinions, it s very intresting to read al these. no fear "atlantia" i like these sword to and it have a good place in my collection. it is not so important for me if it is 50 ore 100 years older ore not. i only would like know as much as possible over the history from these khanda. if it can tell me his story personal so i must not ask. jens, the blade is only (circa) 1,5mm thick but is not so flexible as it shine, it is an good steel and an realy stought blade. jim you ask if i had also an khanda with an hindu basket hilt in my collection. well there is one. i will post some pictures now. it is an very good khanda( my very first) . the blad is from an very fine wootz damast steel. my camera is not good enough to make an picture from the pattern but i hope you and the other members can see the beautifull features from these sword. Attached Images

19th August 2008, 07:22 PM	#4
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 204	some more pictures... Attached Images

19th August 2008, 07:54 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Absolutely outstanding Stefan!!! and you are doing great with photos, it is wonderful to see the detail. Note the distinct hybridization in this with the guard of the Hindu basket hilt incorporated into a Indo Muslim style hilt, the quillons under the guard, bulbous grip, disc pommel etc. Classic examples both!!! Thank you for sharing them.

20th August 2008, 09:11 PM	#6
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	It is a very interesting and educating thread indeed, thank you Jim, Jens and Ward. And of course thank you Stefan for presenting your beautiful and rare swords to all of us. Jens, you always show absolutely stunning, museum quality pieces as examples which are professionally pictured. I always wanted to ask: are they from your own collection (if it is not a secret)? Is it a tulwar you show in this thread? Maybe it was already discussed on this forum? If not, please post a whole sword picture, I love to see your swords

21st August 2008, 01:09 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have, in a PM, been asked if I have had the stamp translated, and as it may be of interest to others I bring the translation here. The translation says, ‘God help us in the upcoming victory’. It is more than likely that other blades with the same stamp can be found, as making a stamp could not have been quite easy, so when it was made, it would most likely have been used on several blades.