African ethno sabre for coments

[Jim McDougall]

Wow David! I saw that too, but was way into Rohrshach flashes at that point
A nagan Amazon sabre from West Africa?

I think it goes back to the very well put note in the 'hornbill' article that Tim linked, basically that stylized creatures in African material culture are representative...not representational. Sounds like wordplay, but I interpret that to mean that often African, or for that matter, many ethnographic weapons have stylized designs or shapes that carry more of a temporal image than deliberate likeness of certain creatures important in tradition or folklore. Perhaps Tim will either agree with or correct my interpretation here, as he is the artist

As I mentioned, the zoomorphic creature on the pommel of the flyssa escapes any tangible image; the trilobate hilt of the karabela on Polish and Turkish parade sabres, carried into Arabian sa'if's is believed to be an eagle head; the hook on many sabre hilts is thought to be a birds beak; and the imagery goes on even much more colorfully in Indonesian and Southeast Asian weapons.

I think all that material I posted, Fernando, was sort of a 'wild goose chase' (using even more zoomorphic metaphor!, but I think we can be pretty sure this is as noted West African, and likely some sort of tribal regalia type piece.If I can ever remember where I saw one like this, maybe it will have more information, or perhaps it remained in the same impasse.

[Tim Simmons]

Jim you are to kind and to my mind right about the African iconography. I am without my PC so I cannot follow up with more information and pics. I have been trying to find stuff I post on the old forum about the hornbill knives I have. I believe in this example we just see exagerated eye sockects for poping round eyes these and other more forward looking birds tend to have in relation to small birds with more side vission if that makes sense. The hornbill image is found on many objects like loom pulleys as well as large sculpture in the round. It does not look dog like to me or aggressive.

[katana]

Hi Jim,
the snake is a dominant icon in African mythology. (especially in the West and the Voodoo religion which was 'exported' due to the slave trade.)

"....The demi-god Aidophedo of the West African Ashanti is also a serpent biting its own tail. In Dahomey mythology of Benin in West Africa, the serpent that supports everything on its many coils was named Dan. In the Vodou of Benin and Haiti Ayida-Weddo (a.k.a. Aida-Wedo, Aido Quedo, "Rainbow-Serpent") is a spirit of fertility, rainbows and snakes, and a companion or wife to Dan, the father of all spirits. As Vodou was exported to Haiti through the slave trade Dan became Danballah, Damballah or Damballah-Wedo...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

".....Mythological snakes that act as forces of good have various roles, such as creating the world, protecting it, or helping humans. Stories of the Fon people of West Africa tell of Da, a serpent whose 3,500 coils support the cosmic ocean in which the earth floats. Another 3,500 of its coils support the sky. Humans occasionally catch a glimpse of many-colored Da in a rainbow or in light reflected on the surface of water.,,,,"
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sa-S...nd-Snakes.html

The other interesting thing is that the Cobra only displays its 'hood' when under threat or about to strike, ideal sybolism for a sword ? The display is to warn a possible attacker of its intent, on occasions this is usually enough and the aggressor 'backs off'. (possibly, again, good symbolism on a sword)

There are instances whereby zoomorphic decoration is a combination of two or more identities. It may be possible in this case. Looking at the pommel (at the angle which suggests cobra) there is a strong hint of an elephant. The pommel from the side (to me) looks reptilian with high brow ridges. Here could be the 'combination' of two seperate talismatic creatures. Symbolically, as each creature is identifiable individually (depending on the view point) their powers are not diluted by the other....and yet they 'exist' in one form. This 'insures' that the talismatic 'power' is greater than the 'sum of its parts', due to their 'co-existance' .......a possibility

All the best
Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

David, I like the snake idea except the Hooded Cobra is and Asian spieces. I am not sure we are looking at an African forest Cobra.

http://www.kingsnake.com/elapids/forest_cobra.htm

Snakes are indeed very special spirit messangers in most of Africa

[katana]

Hi Tim,
The forest Cobra is a possibillity, nearly all cobra's have the ability to 'create' the 'hood' ...muscular movements extends the underlying long, movable ribs, and then is inflated with air from the lungs...the 'hood' is to give the impression that they are larger to potential agressors

http://zoltantakacs.com/zt/tv/04ng/s...bum.php?idx=17


"...The Forest Cobra is the second largest species of Cobra on earth. The RainForests of western Africa are home to this large predator, reaching lengths of over 7 feet this Cobra can deliver a very powerful bite to any would-be predator. Not afraid to stand their ground, the Forest Cobra is often regarded as an aggressive species in captivity...."

Other African species include the Red Spitting Cobra and one of Africa's largest Cobras, the African Black Spitting Cobra (can reach up to 7 feet in length) and are extremely aggressive in the wild. Both I believe are the 'hooded' variety.


Kind Regards David

[fernando]

All right,
I have come to observe strong sympthoms that (at least) the Malian fancied stylizing their figures, like elongating the snouts of the animals, in their "representational" decorations. Look at the snout and ears of these antelopes, crafted by the Bambara, used in helmets, masks and headresses.
Also "mixed" figures may be seen, sugesting half antelopes colated to half crocodiles.
For some reasons practically all these and several other images shown in this collection don't have eyes, but well pronounced ears instead.
If this tendence were the same as the one applied to the figure of my sword, those cavities being ears and not eyes, the animal "representationed" would be something like the hyena,quicker than the lizard and much quicker than a bird.
But what do i know?
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

David, excellent compilation of material on the cobras, and the more I look at this, the more the hooded cobra image seems logical. Fernandos addition of the extremely compelling stylization of the antelope corresponds to those illustrations I have seen of these masks in Mali.
I think it is important to reemphasize the concept of 'representation' in the stylized images of sometimes hybridized creatures, in this case in African material culture including weapons. Ideally, we have hoped to identify this sabre by linking the stylized zoomorphic image on the pommel to creatures significant to certain tribes in certain regions.

Although there are compelling suggestions to what creature this pommel might be, without a provenanced example to corroborate where exactly this sword might be from, we cannot be certain. The overall style seems to resemble the regalia type swords seen in a number of instances in West African and Sahelian regions, and the hanger type swords seen in the work by Bivar on Nigerian arms and armour (thanks Tim are good examples.

[katana]

Two art forms showing the snake, the first is from the Baga, late 19thC the interesting thing is the head .... and seems to represent the hood of a cobra.
The second is definately a Cobra, made of brass, late 19thC early 20th from Cameroon


Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

I have been following this gorgeous piece within this posting closely and would like to offer up the jackal. In particular the golden jackal of Egypt resembles the head very closely. The Jackal has been in African and in particular Egyptian mythos for thousands of years. It is a very rare and desirable sword, worth treasuring.

Gav

PS I do like the arrangement of your collectables shown in the cannon post.

[fernando]

Thank you all Getlemen, for this on-going flow of postings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Although there are compelling suggestions to what creature this pommel might be, without a provenanced example to corroborate where exactly this sword might be from, we cannot be certain ...

Your'e quite right, Jim; but let me quote the whole info provided by Ashoka Arts, in its commercial site, about this piece's origin:

19th century Dogon sword from village of Bamba Mali, it was purchased from Samba Kamissoko in 1998. Clearly influenced by the shape of European military swords of the period, this piece has a cast bronze hilt in the stylised form of an animal with knucleguard and downturned quillon. Complete with its leather scabbard. 32 inches approximately. 19th century or earlier, Mali/Sahel.

My i then admit that, untill contrary evidence, this is a Dogon work; at least and so far, i haven't yet registered vivid opposition to that, from the posting members ... if i'm not mistaken.
... and, as Jim reminds, an (unusual) piece of regalia; possibly having belonged to a Dogon big shot ... if not made to trade with the white man ?!

In the meantime i browsed the Net on the Dogon; they are said to descend from the Egiptions, and are a tribe that exists since 3000 BC ... whether a fact or a legend.

I have also had an opinnion that the misterious animal in the pommel could be a crocodile. This is not at all unplausible, both because its shape is not so distant frrom a croc skull, and also due to these reptiles being sacred to Dogons.
I have read that,when they find a dead crocodile, they take it and bury it like a human in their graveyards up in the caves in the cliffs.

So the riddle continues unsolved ... or not ?

Fernando

Attached a Dogon crocodile mask

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