Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

ward · 4th August 2008, 07:24 PM

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

Andrew · 4th August 2008, 07:35 PM

I'm going to go further than I originally did with this. Not only do I think this blade is not original to the hilt, but I do not believe it was put together "for use".

The complete absence of similar weapons in the Indian tradition speaks volumes in this regard. Many shorter-bladed weapons were produced in India, but none with that type of hilt. There are reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that hilt doesn't work well with a short blade. Use as a "main gauche" as David has suggested, would be much easier if the handle was one that permitted free movement of the wrist. Is it possible that someone did this to use it so? Certainly. However, Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.

katana · 4th August 2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

Hi Ward,
perhaps my enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of me.

But, if the locals are banging these out, someone here must have seen one/bought one ?

Hi Andrew,
thanks for 'putting it gently', 'occum's razor' is certainly the way to go....with no other valid data.

Kind Regards David

A duck..... or rabbit ??

.

ward · 4th August 2008, 08:21 PM

You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

katana · 4th August 2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

Thanks Ward for putting it into context, obviously tribal Africans are also in the same boat. With India's rapid industrial growth in recent years its easy to forget that for a section of the population there is still poverty.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2008, 06:04 PM

In the description of the industrious endeavors of the locals in India recycling various components, it would seem that such crafting would be reduced to mindless commercialism.

It seems in the weaponry of India, there are all manner of examples that elude comprehension of thier practical use, many with multiple blades, odd shapes, bizarre features and so on. Without deeper understanding of the traditional features and often symbolism of weapons associated with ceremonial events as well as martial applications, it is often difficult to transliterate functionality into western perspective.

This dagger is, as agreed, a married piece, using a sword hilt that would seem incongruous to the traditional means of using a dagger, however Davids suggestion (using the western term main gauche descriptively) would seem to indicate possible imitation of western swordsmanship. Although we know that as the Portuguese presence in Malabar became emplaced, thier weapons influenced the Indian forms markedly. The baskethilt developed, mounted as 'firangi' with foreign blades, and as we know, many were the narrow rapier blades. It does not seem too far fetched that the European fencing styles were in varying degree imitated, and use of the main gauche technique quite lilkely observed.

As always, my lack of martial arts knowledge being clear, it does seem that European fencing used the sword and buckler as well as the sword and main gauche, with both used in parrying blows or thrusts. With the rapier of course, the thrust parry involved the use of the main gauche to catch the opponents blade. A well protected guard for the hand would seem quite advisable, though in reality the unsharpened rapier edge was not really a threat to the hand.

Lat night I watched briefly a documentary on the martial arts technique of kalaripayattu in Kerala, India, in which opponents armed with sword and buckler engaged in extremely theatrical appearing combat. Much of this was quite choreographed with turns and leaps, which was described derisively by Sir Richard Burton whose views of native Indians was generally less than favorable in this regard. There were later shown some highly costumed and colorful traditional dance ceremonies using some of these techniques. I wonder if similar reeanactments might have also used the left hand dagger in imitation of the European fencing style?

I also found a very interesting entry in Pant (p.174) showing a dagger with very similar blade shape ( the leaf shape also termed 'gojivhagra' =tip of cow tongue, ibid.p.101). The dagger is known as a katar, katara (here Pant notes that the familiar transverse grip weapon is properly termed 'jemadhar) and the profile seems very similar to this piece. Obviously the full baskethilt does not concur with the hilt on this illustration, but the similarity seemed worthy of note.

Although it is clear that in India, among many spheres of culture, there is an industry fabricating all manner of souveniers for the thriving tourist industry. However it is important to remember that in many cultures, traditional weaponry is still an important element of costume. In other cases, there are votive pieces that are used in religious and traditional ceremonies as well. While these typically would not serve as functional combat weapons, they are typically representative of traditional and historic forms, in varying degree of course.

I guess all this simply means to me is that despite the relatively infallible quacking theory, it always seems worthwhile to keep an open mind

Besides, the search for the obscure against the odds is part of the fun!

Andrew · 8th August 2008, 06:12 PM

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

Uh Oh!!! I hope I'm not sounding like that! Brings back unpleasant memories of belly dancing swords

Rick · 8th August 2008, 06:15 PM

I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of this piece taken from different angles ; I'd like to see the blade edge on and more pictures of the attachment details .

4th August 2008, 07:24 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional. Last edited by ward; 4th August 2008 at 07:46 PM.

4th August 2008, 07:35 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm going to go further than I originally did with this. Not only do I think this blade is not original to the hilt, but I do not believe it was put together "for use". The complete absence of similar weapons in the Indian tradition speaks volumes in this regard. Many shorter-bladed weapons were produced in India, but none with that type of hilt. There are reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that hilt doesn't work well with a short blade. Use as a "main gauche" as David has suggested, would be much easier if the handle was one that permitted free movement of the wrist. Is it possible that someone did this to use it so? Certainly. However, Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.

4th August 2008, 08:21 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

8th August 2008, 06:04 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	In the description of the industrious endeavors of the locals in India recycling various components, it would seem that such crafting would be reduced to mindless commercialism. It seems in the weaponry of India, there are all manner of examples that elude comprehension of thier practical use, many with multiple blades, odd shapes, bizarre features and so on. Without deeper understanding of the traditional features and often symbolism of weapons associated with ceremonial events as well as martial applications, it is often difficult to transliterate functionality into western perspective. This dagger is, as agreed, a married piece, using a sword hilt that would seem incongruous to the traditional means of using a dagger, however Davids suggestion (using the western term main gauche descriptively) would seem to indicate possible imitation of western swordsmanship. Although we know that as the Portuguese presence in Malabar became emplaced, thier weapons influenced the Indian forms markedly. The baskethilt developed, mounted as 'firangi' with foreign blades, and as we know, many were the narrow rapier blades. It does not seem too far fetched that the European fencing styles were in varying degree imitated, and use of the main gauche technique quite lilkely observed. As always, my lack of martial arts knowledge being clear, it does seem that European fencing used the sword and buckler as well as the sword and main gauche, with both used in parrying blows or thrusts. With the rapier of course, the thrust parry involved the use of the main gauche to catch the opponents blade. A well protected guard for the hand would seem quite advisable, though in reality the unsharpened rapier edge was not really a threat to the hand. Lat night I watched briefly a documentary on the martial arts technique of kalaripayattu in Kerala, India, in which opponents armed with sword and buckler engaged in extremely theatrical appearing combat. Much of this was quite choreographed with turns and leaps, which was described derisively by Sir Richard Burton whose views of native Indians was generally less than favorable in this regard. There were later shown some highly costumed and colorful traditional dance ceremonies using some of these techniques. I wonder if similar reeanactments might have also used the left hand dagger in imitation of the European fencing style? I also found a very interesting entry in Pant (p.174) showing a dagger with very similar blade shape ( the leaf shape also termed 'gojivhagra' =tip of cow tongue, ibid.p.101). The dagger is known as a katar, katara (here Pant notes that the familiar transverse grip weapon is properly termed 'jemadhar) and the profile seems very similar to this piece. Obviously the full baskethilt does not concur with the hilt on this illustration, but the similarity seemed worthy of note. Although it is clear that in India, among many spheres of culture, there is an industry fabricating all manner of souveniers for the thriving tourist industry. However it is important to remember that in many cultures, traditional weaponry is still an important element of costume. In other cases, there are votive pieces that are used in religious and traditional ceremonies as well. While these typically would not serve as functional combat weapons, they are typically representative of traditional and historic forms, in varying degree of course. I guess all this simply means to me is that despite the relatively infallible quacking theory, it always seems worthwhile to keep an open mind Besides, the search for the obscure against the odds is part of the fun!

8th August 2008, 06:12 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

8th August 2008, 06:15 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of this piece taken from different angles ; I'd like to see the blade edge on and more pictures of the attachment details .