Origins please

Gavin Nugent · 4th August 2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Blades often saw long service lifes, were family heirlooms, were extensively traded, etc so it is not uncommon to see older blades mounted up in late 19th or early 20th century mounts. While it is not an exact measuring tool, a wider, heavier blade with less curvature can be a fairly old blade especially if it is damascus. Anthony North in his book "Islamic Arms in the V&A" mentions that while it is difficult to date unprovenanced or undated swords the earlier ones tend to be wider and heavier and this was due to usage. It would have been used against armour. In the later times, 18th and 19th century, heavy armour slowly went away and the shamshir design slimmed down, took more curvature, etc.

Lovely swords!

Thanks Rick, your expression of knowledge is always appreciated. I do look forward to feeling them first hand and I will note differences in my postings when they arrive, incidentally I acquired a not uncommon double jian with these as well, late Ching dynasty in pristine condition, when it too arrives I will post these as there is a difference of blade styles I would like to note and hear feedback on.

All the best

Gav

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2008, 04:49 PM

Hi Gavin,
Rick is quite correct in noting that the heavier blades on these swords tends to reflect earlier date. I recall a sabre mounted with what I later discovered was a mid 17th century tulwar blade, and was indeed distinctly wide and very heavy.

As I was looking again at these Syrian sabres, I got out my trusty "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994) and began reading in the first chapter. It was fascinating as the descriptions of Arabia through the 19th century and into the 20th spoke of the trade, warfare and supply of weapons of the Bedouin tribes. The caravans from Damascus through the Hijaz to Mecca it was noted, took 40 days before the completion of the Hijaz railway in 1908. Pilgrims would often bring trade items, including swords, to trade or sell to subsidize their journey.
In the Badiet esh Sham (Syrian desert), many of the northern confederation of Bedouin, collectively called Aniza, and of them the Rwala, prevailed in NW Saudi Arabia. While many Bedouin were of course nomadic, many also settled in towns which became trade centers in that region, especially Jauf, which it is noted was considered a Syrian town, with its diverse cultures.

The reason I am sharing this is to illustrate something very important in weapons collecting. I discovered many years ago that the true adventure is not only holding a piece of history in your hands, but to learn the stories the weapon has to tell. Though I do not have a Syrian sabre in my hands, through the pictures of the two you have acquired, I have gone on a terrific adventure just reading briefly on Arabia, its history and about the Bedouin tribes. Complete excitement!!!

Elgood's wonderful writing speaks of the Bedouin tribes, their warfare going into the 30's and for that matter into the 50's, not only still using swords, but even old matchlocks. This goes not at all make these tribal warriors seem backward, but incredibly magnificent and colorful! I could almost see these sabres being packed along in a desert caravan, traded to Bedouin warriors and carried proudly by them into battle.

It is by no means the number of weapons one has in a collection, it is entirely about the relationship between you and the ones you have. These sabres who were quite possibly once the pride of a Bedouin warrior, have found thier way to you, and it is up to you to safely preserve them and thier history.
As I learned very young, it becomes more about the books and the knowledge much, much more than the volume of weapons, or clearly even the weapons themselves.

I think this is best illustrated in the recent post of Gene Beall (Mare Rosu)'s collection, which consists of only seven weapons, but whose magnitude by the beautiful research and cataloguing has made the collection monumental. As he describes, the weapons have become his dear friends, and the rest is.....history.

Happy collecting!! and congratulations on the new little warrior on the way

!

Jim

Norman McCormick · 4th August 2008, 09:27 PM

Hi Gavin,
Nice swords, am looking forward to seeing them cleaned up a little. Really curious as to the 'few other swords'. BTW the forthcoming addition will probably cost you a lot more than your collection ever will, believe me I know.

My Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 19th August 2008, 09:16 AM

They certainly need a good clean but I do beleive the older broader blade is Damascus as are the scabbard fittings. There are 3, what I consider very bad rust spots on the blade but then I guess it is a very old blade and the ravages of time have had their effect. I will if I ever find the time, give these 2 blades a very good clean to see what else can be revealed.
More to follow...

Gav

4th August 2008, 04:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Gavin, Rick is quite correct in noting that the heavier blades on these swords tends to reflect earlier date. I recall a sabre mounted with what I later discovered was a mid 17th century tulwar blade, and was indeed distinctly wide and very heavy. As I was looking again at these Syrian sabres, I got out my trusty "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994) and began reading in the first chapter. It was fascinating as the descriptions of Arabia through the 19th century and into the 20th spoke of the trade, warfare and supply of weapons of the Bedouin tribes. The caravans from Damascus through the Hijaz to Mecca it was noted, took 40 days before the completion of the Hijaz railway in 1908. Pilgrims would often bring trade items, including swords, to trade or sell to subsidize their journey. In the Badiet esh Sham (Syrian desert), many of the northern confederation of Bedouin, collectively called Aniza, and of them the Rwala, prevailed in NW Saudi Arabia. While many Bedouin were of course nomadic, many also settled in towns which became trade centers in that region, especially Jauf, which it is noted was considered a Syrian town, with its diverse cultures. The reason I am sharing this is to illustrate something very important in weapons collecting. I discovered many years ago that the true adventure is not only holding a piece of history in your hands, but to learn the stories the weapon has to tell. Though I do not have a Syrian sabre in my hands, through the pictures of the two you have acquired, I have gone on a terrific adventure just reading briefly on Arabia, its history and about the Bedouin tribes. Complete excitement!!! Elgood's wonderful writing speaks of the Bedouin tribes, their warfare going into the 30's and for that matter into the 50's, not only still using swords, but even old matchlocks. This goes not at all make these tribal warriors seem backward, but incredibly magnificent and colorful! I could almost see these sabres being packed along in a desert caravan, traded to Bedouin warriors and carried proudly by them into battle. It is by no means the number of weapons one has in a collection, it is entirely about the relationship between you and the ones you have. These sabres who were quite possibly once the pride of a Bedouin warrior, have found thier way to you, and it is up to you to safely preserve them and thier history. As I learned very young, it becomes more about the books and the knowledge much, much more than the volume of weapons, or clearly even the weapons themselves. I think this is best illustrated in the recent post of Gene Beall (Mare Rosu)'s collection, which consists of only seven weapons, but whose magnitude by the beautiful research and cataloguing has made the collection monumental. As he describes, the weapons have become his dear friends, and the rest is.....history. Happy collecting!! and congratulations on the new little warrior on the way! Jim

19th August 2008, 09:16 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A couple of images of the steel They certainly need a good clean but I do beleive the older broader blade is Damascus as are the scabbard fittings. There are 3, what I consider very bad rust spots on the blade but then I guess it is a very old blade and the ravages of time have had their effect. I will if I ever find the time, give these 2 blades a very good clean to see what else can be revealed. More to follow... Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 19th August 2008 at 11:31 AM.

4th August 2008, 09:27 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Gavin, Nice swords, am looking forward to seeing them cleaned up a little. Really curious as to the 'few other swords'. BTW the forthcoming addition will probably cost you a lot more than your collection ever will, believe me I know. My Regards, Norman.