A tiny cannon for ID and coments

M ELEY · 15th July 2008, 08:52 PM

David does have a good point about dual usage as both a signal mortar and mounted hand cannon. Ships did, as mentioned, have space issues when it came to armament. Small mounted swivel guns (miniature deck cannons) were popular for this purpose and likewise, some literature supports the fact that even larger mortars (the portable Coehorn, which fired an exploding shell filled with little grapeshot) made it on board ships. The reason I had initially questioned it as a hand-cannon was due to its short length. However, for shipboard use and "clearing the deck", it wouldn't need to be very long (same reason blunderbus were so popular; close-range spread of projectiles). One last comment, though. Is there any possibility that the band-pattern we are seeing might have been bands encircling the cannon to strengthen it? As items on a ship became worn, repairs were done to naturally extend their working life, if possible.

fernando · 17th July 2008, 12:53 AM

Thank you David and Mark
I take good note of your considerations, and will digest them whilst learning more about these interesting pieces. This particular one has suddenly appeared in a street market and caught me with an entire ignorance in this field. However it fascinated me at the first glance and i felt i couldn't leave without buying it ... after a little bargaining

. I can't say how many portions of fish and ships it cost me, as i am not updated with such dish price; the last time i bought it "in situ" was back in 1968

.
I will for the meantime register it in my collection inventory files as a signal cannon (canhão de sinais), but i will keep in my mind the door open for the hipothesis of it being a hand cannon (canhão de mão), or even a dual (or duel

) purpose implement.
While i was "composing" this post, i made a couple browsings on signal cannons and found that, until the XVI century navy signs were made by hoisting the sails in determined positions, or firing cannons. The system used by Vasco da Gama happens to be known: one shot was the order to carry on, two shots for turning, three shots for hoisting the "moneta" ( extra speed sail) and four shots for slowing down.
They just don't say whether Vasco da Gama used small pluged cannons, like my example, or the real combat pieces

Further material will be most wellcome.
Fernando

fernando · 18th July 2008, 01:10 AM

Gentlemen,
I am about to "swallow some frogs" and take my hat to those who have sugested that this would be part of a hand cannon.
Just look at the following input, posted by a kind member from the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum:

By the size of it, it appears to be a barrel from a handcannon, I have 2 replica's of one's that were copied from a German example from the 1450's. This was mounted on a short pole 1' to 4' depending on the length of the barrel, mine has a 10" barrel on an 16" pole. The pole has a shallow groove cut in one side about 2" shorter than the barrel, it was then bound to the pole with 3 iron bands, The touchhole on top, you would then fire it with a length of slowmatch. The pole was generaly tucked under the arm to hold it. The metal appears to be cast iron, the thin metal liner was made to create a smoother bore and the iron was cast around it.I would suspect that it was made very early 16th century. I hope this is helpfull. .

It all sugests that i can now follow the right track, don't you Gentlemen think so ?
Fernando

Atlantia · 18th July 2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen,
I am about to "swallow some frogs" and take my hat to those who have sugested that this would be part of a hand cannon.
Just look at the following input, posted by a kind member from the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum:

By the size of it, it appears to be a barrel from a handcannon, I have 2 replica's of one's that were copied from a German example from the 1450's. This was mounted on a short pole 1' to 4' depending on the length of the barrel, mine has a 10" barrel on an 16" pole. The pole has a shallow groove cut in one side about 2" shorter than the barrel, it was then bound to the pole with 3 iron bands, The touchhole on top, you would then fire it with a length of slowmatch. The pole was generaly tucked under the arm to hold it. The metal appears to be cast iron, the thin metal liner was made to create a smoother bore and the iron was cast around it.I would suspect that it was made very early 16th century. I hope this is helpfull. .

It all sugests that i can now follow the right track, don't you Gentlemen think so ?
Fernando

LOL, I've never heard that expression before!! As a vegan I wouldn't encourage anyone to 'swallow a frog' ;-)

If it's a handcannon, it would have been a stubby fearsome little beast. I'd love to see one of the replicas the chap mentions being fired!!!

A proper little 'boom stick'!!

Nice find Fernando, great addition to your collection, very very unusual.

Regards
Gene

M ELEY · 18th July 2008, 08:53 PM

I agree-very nice find and especially for the age! It's nice to finally get confirmation on these from someone more knowledgible on them. These are always being listed as ships signal cannons. Pretty cool!

15th July 2008, 08:52 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	David does have a good point about dual usage as both a signal mortar and mounted hand cannon. Ships did, as mentioned, have space issues when it came to armament. Small mounted swivel guns (miniature deck cannons) were popular for this purpose and likewise, some literature supports the fact that even larger mortars (the portable Coehorn, which fired an exploding shell filled with little grapeshot) made it on board ships. The reason I had initially questioned it as a hand-cannon was due to its short length. However, for shipboard use and "clearing the deck", it wouldn't need to be very long (same reason blunderbus were so popular; close-range spread of projectiles). One last comment, though. Is there any possibility that the band-pattern we are seeing might have been bands encircling the cannon to strengthen it? As items on a ship became worn, repairs were done to naturally extend their working life, if possible.

17th July 2008, 12:53 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you David and Mark I take good note of your considerations, and will digest them whilst learning more about these interesting pieces. This particular one has suddenly appeared in a street market and caught me with an entire ignorance in this field. However it fascinated me at the first glance and i felt i couldn't leave without buying it ... after a little bargaining . I can't say how many portions of fish and ships it cost me, as i am not updated with such dish price; the last time i bought it "in situ" was back in 1968 . I will for the meantime register it in my collection inventory files as a signal cannon (canhão de sinais), but i will keep in my mind the door open for the hipothesis of it being a hand cannon (canhão de mão), or even a dual (or duel ) purpose implement. While i was "composing" this post, i made a couple browsings on signal cannons and found that, until the XVI century navy signs were made by hoisting the sails in determined positions, or firing cannons. The system used by Vasco da Gama happens to be known: one shot was the order to carry on, two shots for turning, three shots for hoisting the "moneta" ( extra speed sail) and four shots for slowing down. They just don't say whether Vasco da Gama used small pluged cannons, like my example, or the real combat pieces Further material will be most wellcome. Fernando

18th July 2008, 01:10 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, I am about to "swallow some frogs" and take my hat to those who have sugested that this would be part of a hand cannon. Just look at the following input, posted by a kind member from the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum: By the size of it, it appears to be a barrel from a handcannon, I have 2 replica's of one's that were copied from a German example from the 1450's. This was mounted on a short pole 1' to 4' depending on the length of the barrel, mine has a 10" barrel on an 16" pole. The pole has a shallow groove cut in one side about 2" shorter than the barrel, it was then bound to the pole with 3 iron bands, The touchhole on top, you would then fire it with a length of slowmatch. The pole was generaly tucked under the arm to hold it. The metal appears to be cast iron, the thin metal liner was made to create a smoother bore and the iron was cast around it.I would suspect that it was made very early 16th century. I hope this is helpfull. . It all sugests that i can now follow the right track, don't you Gentlemen think so ? Fernando

18th July 2008, 08:53 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I agree-very nice find and especially for the age! It's nice to finally get confirmation on these from someone more knowledgible on them. These are always being listed as ships signal cannons. Pretty cool!