Ancha/Nimcha

chevalier · 11th July 2008, 12:50 AM

is there an evil eye on the handle?

Valjhun · 11th July 2008, 01:07 AM

Just the eye of a horse, I guess. Nimcha hilts are stylized horse heads, if I'm not wrong.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 01:47 AM

Chevalier and Valhun, its great to see observations on motif and I'm with you guys, in always trying to seek potential symbolism imbued in weapons.
Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial.

The inside langet for carrying these often in a sash rather than scabbard seem characteristic on these shellguard examples of espada ancha (which is actually rather a misnomer as technically it describes a wide bladed heavy sword commonly used by Soldados de Cuero on Mexican frontier). It is interesting to note the semi circles applied overall in the hilt motif which recall the 'sickle marks' often widely seen on trade blades.

Valjhun, the distinct nocked grip on Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilts has long been considered in some degree zoomorphic, much like the hilt of the flyssa, and the trilobate hilt of the karabela....but I dont think there has ever been an accord on what creatures these overstylized hilts represent.
I had never thought of a horsehead, and would very much like to know of references that specify that identity, it would be fantastic to have that resolved!

Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America.

chevalier · 11th July 2008, 05:11 AM

here is another spanish colonial sword

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180258679308

katana · 11th July 2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

..........Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial.

Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America.

Hi Jim

,
perhaps the stylised bird is a Peacock, symbolic to many cultures, including the Moors and the Spanish. The possible 'evil eye' on the hilt may further support this....as the feather markings of the peacock are also associated with 'eyes' (Ancient Greeks) and for some cultures, the 'evil eye'. The peacock's display of feathers certainly lends itself to the shape of the shell guard.

Regards David

.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 06:06 PM

Chevalier, thank you for posting this most unusual 'machete' which seems to correspond loosely in some respects to long straight bladed weapons which typically have hilts with the nimcha like nock and fingerstalls. These were a puzzle for some time until we finally resolved they were actually associated with Cuba and the Philippines and often bringbacks from Spanish American War. The doghead hilt is extremely atypical for anything I've seen from Mexico
but the squiggled motif repeated in motif are the same as on many of the Cuban/Filipino examples.

David, you're really getting good at this 'out of the box' thinking! You bring up great points which are key particularly in studying Indian weapons, where the peacock was extremely important in regalia and other symbolic factors. I'm still not sure of the 'evil eye' association on this hilt, though there is a compelling free association to a human eye (reminding me of the old private eye sign of early detectives). While I have seen the brass stud/nail motif often used on Spanish colonial hilts, and generally in Moorish material culture, I do not recall the eye shape. This seems to be a fixture for holding some type of decorative element in that shape.
As I'll say again, I really like your way of thinking, and openly expressing observations in the true sense of weapons research. It seems that too often there is too much attention to auction and acquisition issues.

Gonzalo G · 11th July 2008, 08:33 PM

Jim, isn´t it a blade a bit too long for an Espada Ancha? I agree those hilts could be related to Africa, as we could find the moorish influence from the Espada Jineta, also used in Spain, on the general form of that hilt. Nimchas are not the only swords with this general type of hilt. I also agree that the eye is part of the head in which the hilt ends. I wonder how much cultural influence did the cristianos nuevos (new christians, or converted moors and jews), exercised into to the culture of the spanish colonies, as they came to America in great numbers.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 11:42 PM

Thanks so much for the response Gonzalo.
Yes, the blade is indeed too long for the literal 'espada ancha', which in Spanish means of course 'wide, heavy or large' sword from what I understand.
The term 'espada ancha' has become generally applied to both civilian sidearms carried by the hidalgos on thier estates as well as the heavy common swords carried by the Soldados de Cuero on the frontier. The application may well be compared to the term nimcha (actually means short sword in Arabic) but the blades on these are typically full length.

The grip with nock near the pommel, as seen on these Moroccan sa'ifs did probably influence the Spanish colonial hilts in some degree.It is important to note that the espada ancha hilt was also heavily influenced by 17th century hangers, such as the Hounslow hangers originally intended as hunting hangers. These were swords of the gentry, much as the espada ancha came to be in New Spain.The Hispano-Moresque jineta in the form I think of seems to be more in line with traditional swords of the earlier periods, and if I recall correctly had the downturned quillons. I think there is likely more explanation involved in 'jineta' as the Moorish warriors in both the Maghreb and in Andelusia.

There was of course quite considerable influence culturally as you mention, beginning with the Conquistadors, and the Moorish influence was profound throughout Spain's colonies.

When I first obtained one of these shellguard espadas, I thought it must be from Spanish colonies in Morocco. One reason was the British blade on it which was clearly from end of the 18th century and the nimcha style hilt that suggested Morocco. The clamshell seems to be of great importance in the Spanish tradition with its association to St.James of Compostela. The bird on the hilt as noted does not seem to be a raptor, so would not be the eagle of Mexican lore, so I am wondering if it might be the pelican or other bird more in line with Christian tradition. With that, the asterisk type star on the inner langet may be a stylized version of the Jerusalem cross, or an eight point cross. The Jerusalem cross had the four arms, with smaller crosses inside each quadrant and may have been interpreted as eight points . Not too sure on that, or if the device had meaning specifically as it is on nonvisible langet.

Teodor is right!

As always my posts are anything but brief, but I really am just sharing information I have found, or observations from researching over the years. I always look forward to hearing other observations and thoughts ...never stop learning!

11th July 2008, 01:47 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Chevalier and Valhun, its great to see observations on motif and I'm with you guys, in always trying to seek potential symbolism imbued in weapons. Although it is tempting to think so, the eye shaped device on the hilt seems to have held some item such as mother of pearl or bone insert that probably aligned with the motif. The evil eye concept prevailed on North African and many Arabian weapons, but not on Spanish colonial. The inside langet for carrying these often in a sash rather than scabbard seem characteristic on these shellguard examples of espada ancha (which is actually rather a misnomer as technically it describes a wide bladed heavy sword commonly used by Soldados de Cuero on Mexican frontier). It is interesting to note the semi circles applied overall in the hilt motif which recall the 'sickle marks' often widely seen on trade blades. Valjhun, the distinct nocked grip on Moroccan sa'if (nimcha) hilts has long been considered in some degree zoomorphic, much like the hilt of the flyssa, and the trilobate hilt of the karabela....but I dont think there has ever been an accord on what creatures these overstylized hilts represent. I had never thought of a horsehead, and would very much like to know of references that specify that identity, it would be fantastic to have that resolved! Amother really unusual thing on the hilt of this example is the very clearly represented bird on the shell, and I'd like to discover more on this. Bird heads of this form in degree are seen on hilts in specific areas in Mexico, and may have to do with the eagle and snake on folklore and legend there, though the head is admittedly not very eagle like. Regardless this might establish an interesting association between Mexico and S.America. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th July 2008 at 02:33 AM.

11th July 2008, 12:50 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	is there an evil eye on the handle?

11th July 2008, 01:07 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Just the eye of a horse, I guess. Nimcha hilts are stylized horse heads, if I'm not wrong.

11th July 2008, 05:11 AM	#4
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	here is another spanish colonial sword http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180258679308

11th July 2008, 06:06 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Chevalier, thank you for posting this most unusual 'machete' which seems to correspond loosely in some respects to long straight bladed weapons which typically have hilts with the nimcha like nock and fingerstalls. These were a puzzle for some time until we finally resolved they were actually associated with Cuba and the Philippines and often bringbacks from Spanish American War. The doghead hilt is extremely atypical for anything I've seen from Mexico but the squiggled motif repeated in motif are the same as on many of the Cuban/Filipino examples. David, you're really getting good at this 'out of the box' thinking! You bring up great points which are key particularly in studying Indian weapons, where the peacock was extremely important in regalia and other symbolic factors. I'm still not sure of the 'evil eye' association on this hilt, though there is a compelling free association to a human eye (reminding me of the old private eye sign of early detectives). While I have seen the brass stud/nail motif often used on Spanish colonial hilts, and generally in Moorish material culture, I do not recall the eye shape. This seems to be a fixture for holding some type of decorative element in that shape. As I'll say again, I really like your way of thinking, and openly expressing observations in the true sense of weapons research. It seems that too often there is too much attention to auction and acquisition issues.

11th July 2008, 08:33 PM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jim, isn´t it a blade a bit too long for an Espada Ancha? I agree those hilts could be related to Africa, as we could find the moorish influence from the Espada Jineta, also used in Spain, on the general form of that hilt. Nimchas are not the only swords with this general type of hilt. I also agree that the eye is part of the head in which the hilt ends. I wonder how much cultural influence did the cristianos nuevos (new christians, or converted moors and jews), exercised into to the culture of the spanish colonies, as they came to America in great numbers. My best regards Gonzalo

11th July 2008, 11:42 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Thanks so much for the response Gonzalo. Yes, the blade is indeed too long for the literal 'espada ancha', which in Spanish means of course 'wide, heavy or large' sword from what I understand. The term 'espada ancha' has become generally applied to both civilian sidearms carried by the hidalgos on thier estates as well as the heavy common swords carried by the Soldados de Cuero on the frontier. The application may well be compared to the term nimcha (actually means short sword in Arabic) but the blades on these are typically full length. The grip with nock near the pommel, as seen on these Moroccan sa'ifs did probably influence the Spanish colonial hilts in some degree.It is important to note that the espada ancha hilt was also heavily influenced by 17th century hangers, such as the Hounslow hangers originally intended as hunting hangers. These were swords of the gentry, much as the espada ancha came to be in New Spain.The Hispano-Moresque jineta in the form I think of seems to be more in line with traditional swords of the earlier periods, and if I recall correctly had the downturned quillons. I think there is likely more explanation involved in 'jineta' as the Moorish warriors in both the Maghreb and in Andelusia. There was of course quite considerable influence culturally as you mention, beginning with the Conquistadors, and the Moorish influence was profound throughout Spain's colonies. When I first obtained one of these shellguard espadas, I thought it must be from Spanish colonies in Morocco. One reason was the British blade on it which was clearly from end of the 18th century and the nimcha style hilt that suggested Morocco. The clamshell seems to be of great importance in the Spanish tradition with its association to St.James of Compostela. The bird on the hilt as noted does not seem to be a raptor, so would not be the eagle of Mexican lore, so I am wondering if it might be the pelican or other bird more in line with Christian tradition. With that, the asterisk type star on the inner langet may be a stylized version of the Jerusalem cross, or an eight point cross. The Jerusalem cross had the four arms, with smaller crosses inside each quadrant and may have been interpreted as eight points . Not too sure on that, or if the device had meaning specifically as it is on nonvisible langet. Teodor is right! As always my posts are anything but brief, but I really am just sharing information I have found, or observations from researching over the years. I always look forward to hearing other observations and thoughts ...never stop learning!