The Keris in Early Javanese Literature

Marcokeris · 4th July 2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I think it's just too bad that the moderators decided to put Mr Baganing in the sandbox

What the fma ppl did to him is quite unfair. I believe he has at least the right to be heard.

Yes, most of the things he said in his blog are "quite controversial" but at least he is offering a new perspective, as far as keris or kris is concerned. Actually I enjoy him for having been here......

I agree

Rick · 5th July 2008, 02:39 AM

As much as I am loath to discuss my actions as a Moderator of this board I will offer this to our Members who may use English as a second or third , nay even fourth or fifth language who have objected to my actions .

To a native English speaker the nuances and tone of this ex member's posts were often insulting to our members and dismissive of reality and long established facts and honest hard research backed up by citation .

In return for our questions we were offered blanket statements with absolutely nothing to back them up except the poster's assertion that they were true . All this coming from an anonymous entity who offered absolutely nothing palpable as evidence .

Every time any member tried to pin this poster down with facts the subject became somehow miraculously changed with yet more unsubstantiated claims and going in yet another direction .

Gentlemen, I have moderated for well over a dozen years on this site and I (and other members here) can smell a Troll from quite some distance .

Now, let's get back on topic please .

David · 5th July 2008, 06:30 AM

Sorry Rick, but just to add a bit to your thoughts, there was and certainly will not ever be any problem with any forum member posting controversial theories or new perspectives here on the forum. The problem here was in the tone and delivery and the constant refusal by Baganing to answer simple and pertinent questions in line with her theories. You do not gain any credibility simply by repeating unsubstantiated theories over and over and over again. Repetition alone does not make them true. Remember Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)?

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2008, 12:33 AM

Fearn, please allow me to clarify my position in respect of these words.

In the Javanese language, the common, everyday word for a keris is "keris". In formal, or ceremonial levels of the language, other words are used, however, that does not concern us, in the English language, we use the word "keris" in all applications.

When we start to look to Sanscrit for the origin of the word "keris", we can find a number of possibilities. I will not explore them all, as any expedition into Sanscrit for the origin of "keris" automatically becomes hypothetical, however, I will mention that the word "kris" does exist in Sanscrit, where it has connections with the concept of thinness, and with a bowman. There are also other Sanscrit words that could provide a good argument for the origin of the word keris, especially when we consider the esoteric nature of the keris.

Regretably, one of these words is not "kalis". I cannot find the word "kalis" or "khalis" in Macdonell ( Sanscrit dictionary), and a search in the online Cologne Digital Sanscrit Lexicon also does not produce these words.Nor are they to be found in Capeller's Sanscrit-English Dictionary. Nor do the words occur in either Tamil or Pahlavi.

On the other hand, using Zoetmulder as my reference, the word "kris" does appear in Old Javanese, derivatives of "kris" are akris:- to use or wear a keris, and anris or kinris:- to stab with a keris. The word "iris" also appears in Old Javanese, and its derivates are aniris, iniris, kahiris:- slice or cut.

I am not a linguist, and although I can read romanised Old Javanese, I am in no way an expert on the language, however, to me there does appear to be a distinct relationship between the idea of a cutting weapon called a kris, and the idea of cutting, expressed by the word "iris". I am not claiming that "kris" is a derivative of "iris", I am saying that in the Old Javanese mind there was a relationship between the two ideas, the act of cutting, and an implement that cut, and this commonality of thought process was expressed in a commonality of sound.

fearn · 7th July 2008, 02:42 AM

Thank you Mr. Maisey, that clarifies it substantially for me. The "kalis" idea came from (I believe) someone talking about the martial art kali, so it is good to know that kalis doesn't exist in sanscrit (I think kali does, but that's another story).

Although this is off topic for this thread, there's a similar linguistic problem with the Wiccan athame magic dagger, which many claim was inspired by the keris (Gerald Gardner, founder of Wicca, was based in Malaysia, and I believe he collected some keris). The word "athame" has been claimed to derive from "adhdhame" (supposedly "dagger" in Arabic, with the hypothesis that Wicca is debased sufism), or alternatively from "atamer," old French for "to cut" (see Wikipedia). Since I read neither arabic nor old French, I can't comment on whether either of these words exist. The point of this ramble is that, if the linguistic origin of the term "keris" isn't crystal clear (despite Mr. Maisey's explication), it is amusing that the athame it inspired has a similarly muddled linguistic background--and it's much more recent in origin.

Thanks again for the clarification.

F

5th July 2008, 02:39 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	As much as I am loath to discuss my actions as a Moderator of this board I will offer this to our Members who may use English as a second or third , nay even fourth or fifth language who have objected to my actions . To a native English speaker the nuances and tone of this ex member's posts were often insulting to our members and dismissive of reality and long established facts and honest hard research backed up by citation . In return for our questions we were offered blanket statements with absolutely nothing to back them up except the poster's assertion that they were true . All this coming from an anonymous entity who offered absolutely nothing palpable as evidence . Every time any member tried to pin this poster down with facts the subject became somehow miraculously changed with yet more unsubstantiated claims and going in yet another direction . Gentlemen, I have moderated for well over a dozen years on this site and I (and other members here) can smell a Troll from quite some distance . Now, let's get back on topic please .

5th July 2008, 06:30 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Sorry Rick, but just to add a bit to your thoughts, there was and certainly will not ever be any problem with any forum member posting controversial theories or new perspectives here on the forum. The problem here was in the tone and delivery and the constant refusal by Baganing to answer simple and pertinent questions in line with her theories. You do not gain any credibility simply by repeating unsubstantiated theories over and over and over again. Repetition alone does not make them true. Remember Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)?

7th July 2008, 12:33 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Fearn, please allow me to clarify my position in respect of these words. In the Javanese language, the common, everyday word for a keris is "keris". In formal, or ceremonial levels of the language, other words are used, however, that does not concern us, in the English language, we use the word "keris" in all applications. When we start to look to Sanscrit for the origin of the word "keris", we can find a number of possibilities. I will not explore them all, as any expedition into Sanscrit for the origin of "keris" automatically becomes hypothetical, however, I will mention that the word "kris" does exist in Sanscrit, where it has connections with the concept of thinness, and with a bowman. There are also other Sanscrit words that could provide a good argument for the origin of the word keris, especially when we consider the esoteric nature of the keris. Regretably, one of these words is not "kalis". I cannot find the word "kalis" or "khalis" in Macdonell ( Sanscrit dictionary), and a search in the online Cologne Digital Sanscrit Lexicon also does not produce these words.Nor are they to be found in Capeller's Sanscrit-English Dictionary. Nor do the words occur in either Tamil or Pahlavi. On the other hand, using Zoetmulder as my reference, the word "kris" does appear in Old Javanese, derivatives of "kris" are akris:- to use or wear a keris, and anris or kinris:- to stab with a keris. The word "iris" also appears in Old Javanese, and its derivates are aniris, iniris, kahiris:- slice or cut. I am not a linguist, and although I can read romanised Old Javanese, I am in no way an expert on the language, however, to me there does appear to be a distinct relationship between the idea of a cutting weapon called a kris, and the idea of cutting, expressed by the word "iris". I am not claiming that "kris" is a derivative of "iris", I am saying that in the Old Javanese mind there was a relationship between the two ideas, the act of cutting, and an implement that cut, and this commonality of thought process was expressed in a commonality of sound.

7th July 2008, 02:42 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thank you Mr. Maisey, that clarifies it substantially for me. The "kalis" idea came from (I believe) someone talking about the martial art kali, so it is good to know that kalis doesn't exist in sanscrit (I think kali does, but that's another story). Although this is off topic for this thread, there's a similar linguistic problem with the Wiccan athame magic dagger, which many claim was inspired by the keris (Gerald Gardner, founder of Wicca, was based in Malaysia, and I believe he collected some keris). The word "athame" has been claimed to derive from "adhdhame" (supposedly "dagger" in Arabic, with the hypothesis that Wicca is debased sufism), or alternatively from "atamer," old French for "to cut" (see Wikipedia). Since I read neither arabic nor old French, I can't comment on whether either of these words exist. The point of this ramble is that, if the linguistic origin of the term "keris" isn't crystal clear (despite Mr. Maisey's explication), it is amusing that the athame it inspired has a similarly muddled linguistic background--and it's much more recent in origin. Thanks again for the clarification. F