Moro Armor Arabic Inscription

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2008, 12:02 AM

Ward, I have a very good friend who lives in Jawa, and who is an Imam.He is a highly educated man and is widely respected for his ability to read Arabic scripts. What you have said above, he has also said to me, however, with one addition:- where the script has been written by a person who does not have a high level of learning, or skill, it can result in forms that are incorrect. If the passage is from Al-Qur'an, this is not usually a problem, because once the passage has been identified, the illegible words will be known.
Often we find inscriptions on the reverse of keris scabbards and their metal covers. Sometimes these are in Javanese---which can also present problems with script---but perhaps as often the inscriptions are supposed to be Arabic, and nearly always the incorrectly formed script presents problems that result in a guessing game.

ward · 4th July 2008, 12:21 AM

I do not disagee with seeing bad spelling and some terrible handwiting is a problem. You must remember that artisians that are uneducated are very often copying the script off basically a template. I have often seen script written on the wall of a shop and copied letter by letter onto a piece. Just because you can speak arabic does not mean you can read or write. It still does not mean the language has changed. Allah in 800 A.D. is still Allah 2008 A.D.

Bill M · 4th July 2008, 01:02 AM

Perhaps people can copy letters they may not understand.

Perhaps even Russian and Finish people can sing in English, a language they may not understand. Hope the following link is not to much a diversion from the previous erudite discussion.

At least their hair and shoes look like weapons. I now present one of the most surreal musical renditions it has been my good fortune to experience.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0lNFRLrP014

You might want to engage your computer's audio and let's "get down!"

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2008, 01:17 AM

Agreed Ward, the language has not changed, but the way in which it is represented can vary, depending upon the level of knowledge, education, or skill of the person who writes the inscription.

ward · 4th July 2008, 01:26 AM

If i get a chance this weekend I will take some pics of the various scripts and post them.

Lew · 4th July 2008, 02:50 AM

Ward

I picked up a very nice tulwar a few months back which had this inscription on the spine. I asked about 10 of my Arabic friends to help me out with the translations but none of them could read. They all told me it was an older script form that they were not familar with. So if Arabic is Arabic why did they have trouble reading it? Btw Ham was able to translate it and it reads "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR".

Lew

Lew · 4th July 2008, 03:21 AM

Here is an example of different Arabic script forms. So what I am trying to say that if the script on the armor was Thuluth than it could have been of Ottoman origin but it does not seem to be of that type.

7. Samples of Cursive Styles of Arabic calligraphy. From top to bottom:
Naskh, Thuluth, Muhaqqaq, Nastaliq, and riq'a.

ward · 4th July 2008, 03:24 AM

reading a individual's handwriting is difficult at times and I believe ham has had a lot of practice at that. If you would look at my english cursive script and my wifes it is like night and day. still the same language but it looks totally different. Caligraphy is another fun one sometimes there is a lot of artistic licence used the look being more important than the message.

4th July 2008, 02:50 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ward I picked up a very nice tulwar a few months back which had this inscription on the spine. I asked about 10 of my Arabic friends to help me out with the translations but none of them could read. They all told me it was an older script form that they were not familar with. So if Arabic is Arabic why did they have trouble reading it? Btw Ham was able to translate it and it reads "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR". Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 4th July 2008 at 03:01 AM.

4th July 2008, 03:21 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is an example of different Arabic script forms. So what I am trying to say that if the script on the armor was Thuluth than it could have been of Ottoman origin but it does not seem to be of that type. 7. Samples of Cursive Styles of Arabic calligraphy. From top to bottom: Naskh, Thuluth, Muhaqqaq, Nastaliq, and riq'a. Attached Images

4th July 2008, 12:02 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Ward, I have a very good friend who lives in Jawa, and who is an Imam.He is a highly educated man and is widely respected for his ability to read Arabic scripts. What you have said above, he has also said to me, however, with one addition:- where the script has been written by a person who does not have a high level of learning, or skill, it can result in forms that are incorrect. If the passage is from Al-Qur'an, this is not usually a problem, because once the passage has been identified, the illegible words will be known. Often we find inscriptions on the reverse of keris scabbards and their metal covers. Sometimes these are in Javanese---which can also present problems with script---but perhaps as often the inscriptions are supposed to be Arabic, and nearly always the incorrectly formed script presents problems that result in a guessing game.

4th July 2008, 12:21 AM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I do not disagee with seeing bad spelling and some terrible handwiting is a problem. You must remember that artisians that are uneducated are very often copying the script off basically a template. I have often seen script written on the wall of a shop and copied letter by letter onto a piece. Just because you can speak arabic does not mean you can read or write. It still does not mean the language has changed. Allah in 800 A.D. is still Allah 2008 A.D.

4th July 2008, 01:02 AM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Perhaps people can copy letters they may not understand. Perhaps even Russian and Finish people can sing in English, a language they may not understand. Hope the following link is not to much a diversion from the previous erudite discussion. At least their hair and shoes look like weapons. I now present one of the most surreal musical renditions it has been my good fortune to experience. http://youtube.com/watch?v=0lNFRLrP014 You might want to engage your computer's audio and let's "get down!"

4th July 2008, 01:17 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Agreed Ward, the language has not changed, but the way in which it is represented can vary, depending upon the level of knowledge, education, or skill of the person who writes the inscription.

4th July 2008, 01:26 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	If i get a chance this weekend I will take some pics of the various scripts and post them.

4th July 2008, 03:24 AM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	reading a individual's handwriting is difficult at times and I believe ham has had a lot of practice at that. If you would look at my english cursive script and my wifes it is like night and day. still the same language but it looks totally different. Caligraphy is another fun one sometimes there is a lot of artistic licence used the look being more important than the message.