Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

This is exactly what i am talking about when i point out your incredible ability to ignore facts that fly in the face of your theories. Back in post #24 (i suggest you go back and carefully re-read all of that post) Mr. Maisey presented the following:

"In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt."

Clearly here is cited literary evidence that the word keris was in common usage in Jawa in the 14th century. Did you miss this or just choose to ignore it? It is a word which came about to describe a weapon of Jawa origin when Jawa was Hindu. The word keris may very well be older than this. The keris certainly is. Mr. Maisey also provided you with a very reasonable etymology for the word from roots in the Javanese language. Why on Earth would a Hindu Javanese culture use a Islamic influenced Turkish word to derive a name for a dagger that had so much cultural significance in Hindu Jawa?
But hey, go on, keep trying to slam that square peg of yours into that round hole.

[TVV]

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

... because it would disprove many historical conventions.

Using a genetic map, haplogroup J (for arabs) was not present in the Philippines, Sumatra, and Borneo before 1500.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.

In Nawanatya, twek from tuwek, sanskrit for the sword's point, was used as a metaphor for men's masculinity. Twek is not a sword. It is where the filipino's tusok (thrust) from tuwok, a variation, came from.

There is no 'Keris" "kris" or "Kalis" in Nagarakertagama (1365). kuriga was used in that time period. It is from the sanskrit khadga that became kharga, then kuriga-- a C or a K is a matter of choice.

the word "keris" is in Pararaton. I don't wonder because the book was written in 16th century-- it is within my timeline.

When I am done, I will post about naga and kuriga as the father and the mother of keris, kris, or kalis.

[baganing_balyan]

correction on my one blog post that keras was the source of keris. it is actually the opposite.

I just got hold of the genetic map this week; hence, i am pretty sure now that keris is from the turkish word kilich which in malay is kilis because ch is pronounced as s in malay languages. L and R are also interchangeably used such as arak and alak (wine).

[baganing_balyan]

can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.