Nice Persian TABAR for comment

Valjhun · 21st June 2008, 09:17 PM

10 inches across

early qajar?

Atlantia · 21st June 2008, 09:40 PM

Very nice!
Is the handle original?

The head is a lovely shape, very elegant. Is it sharp?

Valjhun · 22nd June 2008, 03:46 AM

I don't think that the handle is original. It could be, but I find it very improbable.

Yes, it retains all original sharpness. Very sharp.

ariel · 22nd June 2008, 05:45 AM

My guess this is a relatively recent and non-functional production. The top does not seem to agree with the style, it looks almost like a door knob.It is nailed to the shaft, and this is unlikely to be original... The koftgari is uneven, pretty basic and too intact to be truly old.
Overall, I think it is a Qajar or, more likely, Pahlavi-era bazaar piece.
Am I being too paranoid?

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2008, 06:47 AM

While a very attractive piece, this does seem to be an interpretation of Persian parade axes of the 18th century. These had the symmetrical crescents, but no knob type affectation at the top of the haft.

There does seem to be some interesting history behind these double headed axes that extends back to ancient Minoans and Knossos. The double axe was apparantly called a 'labrys', and as the palace at Knossos was the fabled labrynthe it was known as 'house of the double axe'. While not claiming to be a classical historian, I found this interesting, but did not pursue the possible links to Persian history, and some notes to the use of the double crescent in thier art.

Elgood, in "Islamic Arms and Armour" (p.238) notes that in the Ottoman courts, the 'Peiks' (Persian=the messengers) which were one of the Sultan's bodyguard units carried axes with double heads.

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2008, 10:26 AM

The axe blade could be a 19th century Indian version. I thought the blade looked quite good in that case.

Valjhun · 22nd June 2008, 04:56 PM

The top was added by me

I have to find a more suitable spear or something like it

Blades are very functional anf sharp, tappering towards the edge. 2cm wide at the conjunction. It has a feel of a battle piece, not of a tourist crap. I'm familiar with typical qajar revival and 20th century tourist pieces. Thatone is totally different.

It was found covered by dark patina. The koftgari appeared only after it was cleaned. I used a mild cleaning solution.

Not a recent toy, for sure.

However I have no idea of its origin nor provenience. It could be Indian, like Tim suggested. The koftgari is verry simple an unfamiliar to me. Maybe from Sudan?

ward · 22nd June 2008, 05:03 PM

It does not have a Sudanese feel the kotkagari does look indian to me

Atlantia · 22nd June 2008, 06:15 PM

I think its most likely second half 19thC. There are a lot of modern good items around but this one looks ok to me. I'd worry about a lack of deeper oxidisation in the recesses between the blades and shaft loop, but Valjhun has seen it pre-clean, so would have suspicions if it had looked newly aged or dirtied up.
I think if it was 'new' it would have an ornate handle to go with it. If it was recent it would be lighter or unsharpened.
I'd have a punt at it at the right price.
I think its either old enough or nice enough to merit a place in my collection.

I like the plain wooden shaft.

Heres a similar shaped head in the V&A

jthommo · 22nd June 2008, 11:31 PM

I posted a single sided axe head in april the design on the blade is the same I think

Thommo(amateur)

Atlantia · 23rd June 2008, 12:37 AM

I really like the Bhuj and flanged mace in that diagram as well.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2008, 01:31 AM

nice bhiuj

Valjhun · 23rd June 2008, 04:39 AM

Thanks jthommo! Yes, identical kofgatri!

Well, I've aquired that from an old attic here nerby, hmmm, is it really possible that the thing is turkish? I can't believe that, but...

21st June 2008, 09:17 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Nice Persian TABAR for comment 10 inches across early qajar? Attached Images

22nd June 2008, 11:31 PM	#10
jthommo Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 9	axe head I posted a single sided axe head in april the design on the blade is the same I think Thommo(amateur)

21st June 2008, 09:40 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Very nice! Is the handle original? The head is a lovely shape, very elegant. Is it sharp?

22nd June 2008, 03:46 AM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I don't think that the handle is original. It could be, but I find it very improbable. Yes, it retains all original sharpness. Very sharp.

22nd June 2008, 05:45 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My guess this is a relatively recent and non-functional production. The top does not seem to agree with the style, it looks almost like a door knob.It is nailed to the shaft, and this is unlikely to be original... The koftgari is uneven, pretty basic and too intact to be truly old. Overall, I think it is a Qajar or, more likely, Pahlavi-era bazaar piece. Am I being too paranoid?

22nd June 2008, 06:47 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	While a very attractive piece, this does seem to be an interpretation of Persian parade axes of the 18th century. These had the symmetrical crescents, but no knob type affectation at the top of the haft. There does seem to be some interesting history behind these double headed axes that extends back to ancient Minoans and Knossos. The double axe was apparantly called a 'labrys', and as the palace at Knossos was the fabled labrynthe it was known as 'house of the double axe'. While not claiming to be a classical historian, I found this interesting, but did not pursue the possible links to Persian history, and some notes to the use of the double crescent in thier art. Elgood, in "Islamic Arms and Armour" (p.238) notes that in the Ottoman courts, the 'Peiks' (Persian=the messengers) which were one of the Sultan's bodyguard units carried axes with double heads.

22nd June 2008, 10:26 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The axe blade could be a 19th century Indian version. I thought the blade looked quite good in that case.

22nd June 2008, 04:56 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	The top was added by me I have to find a more suitable spear or something like it Blades are very functional anf sharp, tappering towards the edge. 2cm wide at the conjunction. It has a feel of a battle piece, not of a tourist crap. I'm familiar with typical qajar revival and 20th century tourist pieces. Thatone is totally different. It was found covered by dark patina. The koftgari appeared only after it was cleaned. I used a mild cleaning solution. Not a recent toy, for sure. However I have no idea of its origin nor provenience. It could be Indian, like Tim suggested. The koftgari is verry simple an unfamiliar to me. Maybe from Sudan?

22nd June 2008, 05:03 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It does not have a Sudanese feel the kotkagari does look indian to me

22nd June 2008, 06:15 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I think its most likely second half 19thC. There are a lot of modern good items around but this one looks ok to me. I'd worry about a lack of deeper oxidisation in the recesses between the blades and shaft loop, but Valjhun has seen it pre-clean, so would have suspicions if it had looked newly aged or dirtied up. I think if it was 'new' it would have an ornate handle to go with it. If it was recent it would be lighter or unsharpened. I'd have a punt at it at the right price. I think its either old enough or nice enough to merit a place in my collection. I like the plain wooden shaft. Heres a similar shaped head in the V&A

23rd June 2008, 12:37 AM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I really like the Bhuj and flanged mace in that diagram as well.

23rd June 2008, 01:31 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	nice bhiuj

23rd June 2008, 04:39 AM	#13
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thanks jthommo! Yes, identical kofgatri! Well, I've aquired that from an old attic here nerby, hmmm, is it really possible that the thing is turkish? I can't believe that, but...