Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

Richard Furrer · 6th June 2008, 02:58 PM

Jeff,
I understand you meaning....it could also be a bit of bar forged in to locally distort with no/minimal material removal...just a distorion...like Fogg's "spirit" pattern.
However, the corrosion on the blade looks to me like all the forge work had been done years ago priot ro the repolishing that obviously had been done to this blade before selling.
Deep pits like that are not the result of forging, but rust later. The pits appear to be overlapping the zig-zag so I do not think this is a recent forge job.

Ric

Jeff Pringle · 6th June 2008, 03:41 PM

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

Richard Furrer · 7th June 2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

I think if one were to have reforged this that a slightly thinner blade or one less wide would have taken care of the pits nicely.....also during grinding one could have shortened the blade a bit and also done away with the pits......odds are the new polisher just dusted off the surface a bit and etched.

The tip portion shows pitting as well...near the spine.

As you said...Ebay pictures, however...barring the odd provinance and seller and wrong quotes/lies....I think the blade may be good....at the very least it is still rare..even if it were altered in our generation.

Ric

Jeff D · 7th June 2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I think the blade may be good....at the very least it is still rare..even if it were altered in our generation.

Ric

Hi Ric,

Actually I would say the blade has been vandalized. Rare only in that most modern dealer would never alter an old wootz blade.
I have a question. Has this blade even been reforged? I can't tell if it has a smooth surface, and in fact the light seems to reflect unevenly around the scars. It evens out at the edges where the scar is less pronounced from the polish. Could a very superfical, tapered groove leave this pattern? The wootz swirls seem to end at the groove rather than run with the grooves as seen on the forged patterns.

Great discussion!
Jeff

Jeff Pringle · 8th June 2008, 12:38 AM

I think we are looking at a level surface in those photos, and there is some optical illusion going on from the way the ladders were done.

Does anyone have a photo to post of a different blade, with hopefully a different provenance, that has 'normal' ladders that look similar to these in some way?

Jeff Pringle · 9th June 2008, 05:39 PM

I located the blade for ’04 with the angle grinder zig-zags, as you can see there is a similarity to the way the ladders look even though the underlying character of the wootz is quite different, it is something I don’t recall seeing in an antique blade.

ALEX · 15th June 2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I think we are looking at a level surface in those photos, and there is some optical illusion going on from the way the ladders were done.

Does anyone have a photo to post of a different blade, with hopefully a different provenance, that has 'normal' ladders that look similar to these in some way?

Jeff,
Here's an authentic blade with Shah Abbas/AssadAllah cartouches. The blade has Kirk Narduban/Ladder pattern and when viewed under an angle - the ladders appear "raised" (Sorry, the quality of the picture does not represent it that well). I have not seen many swords with similar effect, and this is to demonstrate that this is not an illusion per se, but a real and natural effect on some Kirk patterned blades !

Jeff Pringle · 16th June 2008, 07:41 AM

Marvelous, Alex – that’s what we need, those are certainly tighter ladders than you run across in run-of-the-mill, everyday wootz. Now if you had a higher-resolution version of the photo, we could really start comparing. Without that, I can give an opinion that the AA blade’s ladders seem less sharply defined when taken in total, and perhaps more importantly - notice they have a light/dark (or dark/light, depending on which direction you read your wootz), two stage influence on the light reflecting from the blade surface, the zig-zag blades have a three stage dark/light/dark reflection on many rungs, depending on the angle of incident light.
Imagine a semi-circular trough cut into the wootz, and a more squared-off trench, the first leans more towards a left side, right side reflection, the latter towards left side, bottom, right side.
But hopefully we can scare up more examples, to bounce opinions off of.

Rand, I don’t suppose you kept a copy of one or two of those photos you sent to Figiel a decade ago, that could be digitized and posted?

To further answer Mark’s questions:
Yes, grinding & reforging creates that squeezing of the bands, and the bands can have an effect on reflected light like the grain of a figured wood like curly maple, the closer the blade is to final forged shape when the design is cut the more pronounced the effect.
Angle grinders and similar abrasive devices have a small contact patch with the item being ground into, so it is possible to cut curved lines – but later forging can also make a straight line curve as well.

Too many variables!

6th June 2008, 03:41 PM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by Attached Images

9th June 2008, 05:39 PM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I located the blade for ’04 with the angle grinder zig-zags, as you can see there is a similarity to the way the ladders look even though the underlying character of the wootz is quite different, it is something I don’t recall seeing in an antique blade. Attached Images

6th June 2008, 02:58 PM	#1
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Jeff, I understand you meaning....it could also be a bit of bar forged in to locally distort with no/minimal material removal...just a distorion...like Fogg's "spirit" pattern. However, the corrosion on the blade looks to me like all the forge work had been done years ago priot ro the repolishing that obviously had been done to this blade before selling. Deep pits like that are not the result of forging, but rust later. The pits appear to be overlapping the zig-zag so I do not think this is a recent forge job. Ric

8th June 2008, 12:38 AM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I think we are looking at a level surface in those photos, and there is some optical illusion going on from the way the ladders were done. Does anyone have a photo to post of a different blade, with hopefully a different provenance, that has 'normal' ladders that look similar to these in some way?

16th June 2008, 07:41 AM	#8
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Marvelous, Alex – that’s what we need, those are certainly tighter ladders than you run across in run-of-the-mill, everyday wootz. Now if you had a higher-resolution version of the photo, we could really start comparing. Without that, I can give an opinion that the AA blade’s ladders seem less sharply defined when taken in total, and perhaps more importantly - notice they have a light/dark (or dark/light, depending on which direction you read your wootz), two stage influence on the light reflecting from the blade surface, the zig-zag blades have a three stage dark/light/dark reflection on many rungs, depending on the angle of incident light. Imagine a semi-circular trough cut into the wootz, and a more squared-off trench, the first leans more towards a left side, right side reflection, the latter towards left side, bottom, right side. But hopefully we can scare up more examples, to bounce opinions off of. Rand, I don’t suppose you kept a copy of one or two of those photos you sent to Figiel a decade ago, that could be digitized and posted? To further answer Mark’s questions: Yes, grinding & reforging creates that squeezing of the bands, and the bands can have an effect on reflected light like the grain of a figured wood like curly maple, the closer the blade is to final forged shape when the design is cut the more pronounced the effect. Angle grinders and similar abrasive devices have a small contact patch with the item being ground into, so it is possible to cut curved lines – but later forging can also make a straight line curve as well. Too many variables!