Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

ward · 4th June 2008, 08:03 PM

Yes I saw that and thought it was funny. I generally ignore the descriptions and just look at the piece. It is the same when people quote Tirri or Pant as gospel on the subject

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 08:39 PM

Very true Ward. Anyone who ever bought anything from Middle Eastern bazaars would better ignore the claims that every piece is made by AssadAllah and is 800 years old... at least:-) But Ariel also has a good point - the seller's credibility, or lack of it, hurt his business.

ward · 4th June 2008, 08:49 PM

very true. I miss the bazaars it has been a few months since I have been in them. Inshallah I will go back soon

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2008, 09:59 PM

Perhaps nobody noticed Lew's question, which seems particularly key to this discussion.....when exactly did we lose Dr. Figiel? Does anybody know?

I was also unaware that Brian Robson ("Swords of the British Army") had passed, and uncertain of when that took place. It is always sad to lose these men who have contributed so much to the study of weapons. Surprisingly, even those whose work has been known to be flawed in varying degree, have in thier own way set the path for research, such as Dr.Pant.

Jeff D · 5th June 2008, 02:53 AM

Hi All,

I would be very careful of anything this seller has to offer. For fun you should follow his other listings. He does have access to relatively skilled craftsmen but he rarely does his home work and will make big mistakes. A lot of his offerings are composites as well. I agree 100 % with Jeff. The lines are less "organic" because they were made very superficial. This is an old rusty blade dolled up. It has been hand polished so that the wootz pattern has not been lost.
Dr Leo S. Figiel died in the 90's (I will see if I can find out when). This gentleman consulted Mr. Leo Figiel, I don't know who he is but he might be a jeweler

.

All the Best
Jeff

ALEX · 5th June 2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

...This is an old rusty blade dolled up. It has been hand polished so that the wootz pattern has not been lost. ...

Jeff, while it is a theoretical possibility, I can not see it being technically achievable. I know there are master blacksmiths who can forge wootz blades, but to take an old blade, reforge and regrind it while preserving wootz pattern is something "unreal" to me.
Would be so interesting to hear from smiths/metallurgists who can comment on the technical possibility.

Jeff D · 5th June 2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Jeff, while it is a theoretical possibility, I can not see it being technically achievable. I know there are master blacksmiths who can forge wootz blades, but to take an old blade, reforge and regrind it while preserving wootz pattern is something "unreal" to me.
Would be so interesting to hear from smiths/metallurgists who can comment on the technical possibility.

Hi Alex,

I would love to hear to.

All the best
Jeff

Lee · 6th June 2008, 12:30 AM

What a fool I am. Yes, Jeff, you have opened my eyes. The character of the 'rungs' is indeed suspicious. So, start with an unpatterned wootz blade, cut new shallow file marks, reforge at low temperature and flatten a bit followed by a light grind and polish.

Photographs can be so deceiving and none of the several shown really give a clue as to thickness. These days I would not buy a purported European medieval sword unless I or a trusted agent had handled it up close and I suppose that rule really must be extended to anything commanding a significant price.

RSWORD · 6th June 2008, 12:58 AM

I am enjoying the scrutiny over this piece and it is proving to be extremely educational because wootz tends to be very safe because the old complex patterns really cannot be reproduced today and if this is a contemporary manipulation of a blade with complex pattern it is a first and worthy of discussion. However, I am not yet convinced this is the case but would love to continue to discuss the practicality of taking a blade with an existing, very complex wootz pattern, chiseling a zig zag pattern, reforging blade at low temperature and then regrind and polish without 1) losing any of the wootz pattern(albeit there is a bit of fading towards the spine) or 2) altering the complexities of the existing pattern. Please look at this close up of a section of blade. I am noticing a couple of interesting things. First, notice that there is a very narrow shadowy line that is zig-zagging. Right next to that, there is another, lighter line and in the middle are complex swirls on most "rungs" for a lack of a better word. But also notice in the middle of this picture there is a singular line running between the zig zags but also at the same angle. What created this effect? You would think if someone was chiseling zig zags they wouldn't start a line and go whoops better slide over a few centimeters. Since creating this pattern seems basically the same whether you do it at the original making of the blade, or post original blade manufacture, how can you tell the difference? Wootz is hard enough for contemporary smiths to forge I doubt anyone would be willing to experiment on a finished product that has already been forged, ground and polished, and there probably are not any of us that want to donate any wootz blade to experiment upon so I, for one, am excited to continue the debate to see if we can figure out if there is a way to tell if someone has the capability in these days and times to manipulate a very complex patterned wootz blade.

6th June 2008, 12:30 AM	#8
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Yes, Jeff, you have opened my eyes What a fool I am. Yes, Jeff, you have opened my eyes. The character of the 'rungs' is indeed suspicious. So, start with an unpatterned wootz blade, cut new shallow file marks, reforge at low temperature and flatten a bit followed by a light grind and polish. Photographs can be so deceiving and none of the several shown really give a clue as to thickness. These days I would not buy a purported European medieval sword unless I or a trusted agent had handled it up close and I suppose that rule really must be extended to anything commanding a significant price.

6th June 2008, 12:58 AM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I am enjoying the scrutiny over this piece and it is proving to be extremely educational because wootz tends to be very safe because the old complex patterns really cannot be reproduced today and if this is a contemporary manipulation of a blade with complex pattern it is a first and worthy of discussion. However, I am not yet convinced this is the case but would love to continue to discuss the practicality of taking a blade with an existing, very complex wootz pattern, chiseling a zig zag pattern, reforging blade at low temperature and then regrind and polish without 1) losing any of the wootz pattern(albeit there is a bit of fading towards the spine) or 2) altering the complexities of the existing pattern. Please look at this close up of a section of blade. I am noticing a couple of interesting things. First, notice that there is a very narrow shadowy line that is zig-zagging. Right next to that, there is another, lighter line and in the middle are complex swirls on most "rungs" for a lack of a better word. But also notice in the middle of this picture there is a singular line running between the zig zags but also at the same angle. What created this effect? You would think if someone was chiseling zig zags they wouldn't start a line and go whoops better slide over a few centimeters. Since creating this pattern seems basically the same whether you do it at the original making of the blade, or post original blade manufacture, how can you tell the difference? Wootz is hard enough for contemporary smiths to forge I doubt anyone would be willing to experiment on a finished product that has already been forged, ground and polished, and there probably are not any of us that want to donate any wootz blade to experiment upon so I, for one, am excited to continue the debate to see if we can figure out if there is a way to tell if someone has the capability in these days and times to manipulate a very complex patterned wootz blade. Attached Images

4th June 2008, 08:03 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes I saw that and thought it was funny. I generally ignore the descriptions and just look at the piece. It is the same when people quote Tirri or Pant as gospel on the subject

4th June 2008, 08:39 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Very true Ward. Anyone who ever bought anything from Middle Eastern bazaars would better ignore the claims that every piece is made by AssadAllah and is 800 years old... at least:-) But Ariel also has a good point - the seller's credibility, or lack of it, hurt his business.

4th June 2008, 08:49 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	very true. I miss the bazaars it has been a few months since I have been in them. Inshallah I will go back soon

4th June 2008, 09:59 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Perhaps nobody noticed Lew's question, which seems particularly key to this discussion.....when exactly did we lose Dr. Figiel? Does anybody know? I was also unaware that Brian Robson ("Swords of the British Army") had passed, and uncertain of when that took place. It is always sad to lose these men who have contributed so much to the study of weapons. Surprisingly, even those whose work has been known to be flawed in varying degree, have in thier own way set the path for research, such as Dr.Pant.

5th June 2008, 02:53 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, I would be very careful of anything this seller has to offer. For fun you should follow his other listings. He does have access to relatively skilled craftsmen but he rarely does his home work and will make big mistakes. A lot of his offerings are composites as well. I agree 100 % with Jeff. The lines are less "organic" because they were made very superficial. This is an old rusty blade dolled up. It has been hand polished so that the wootz pattern has not been lost. Dr Leo S. Figiel died in the 90's (I will see if I can find out when). This gentleman consulted Mr. Leo Figiel, I don't know who he is but he might be a jeweler . All the Best Jeff