Malela luk 5 for comment..

parong sari · 30th May 2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Mr ParongSari,

From which part you come from Parong Sari? Perak is not that small in Malysian context the last time I was there

There's no doubt that even in Indonesia those days (during Singhasari & Majapahit eras to be exact) that keris was indeed used as a weapon. Otherwise, the story of Mpu Gandring, Ken Arok & Tunggul Ametung is well....just a myth

And even your nick name, "Parong Sari" suggests that it's a dapor of keris from Tanah Jawa. Or maybe you are referring to the other keris used by Hang Tuah in the duel with Hang Jebat. Please take note that even that particular parong sari was made in Majapahit, though not as powerful as taming sari that also happened to be made in Majapahit.

You also might be surprised that the pride of fighting Malay Keris - the pandai saras was actually originated from Tanah Jawa.

Anyway, I am glad that you took the trouble to post in this forum - the more, the merrier.

Penangsang

p/s: ParongSari, what style of silat that you teach, if you dont mind letting us know. TQ.

No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative..

i'm not saying that javanese or any other indonesian kerises are not good, but most of them aren't made for fighting.. and don't judge a keris by it's composition of steel or the pamor and say that its not fit enough to be a keris because malaysian keris were forged to kill.. just a matter of using them or not.. i'm not offended because i have any interest in this keris but because it's a malay keris and by my observation, this keris is the right type for a duel and should earn some respect even it is not as fancy as javanese keris which is for display..

Has anyone of you forumers use your beloved keris for fighting practices or something?? don't see any hands up which i guess they are only for viewing pleasure only..

p/s: dosen't really matter how i spell parong or parung, tameng or taming, it's the pronunciation that counts my friend..

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2008, 09:19 AM

Parong Sari, I assume you have addressed your comment on the spelling of "parung" to me, so I shall respond.

You are of course correct in that it is pronunciation that is important, however, this romanisation of the original Javanese script is given in Jawa as "parung". In Malaysia it seems that it is usually given as "parong". These two words have a totally different sound, and in the Malay language, as far as I have been able to ascertain, the word "parong" is unknown and has no meaning. In Jawa the word in its original and correct transliteration has a very definite meaning.

This confusion would seem to indicate that when the romanisation of the original Javanese script was found necessary in Malay, the result was influenced by the accent of a speaker.

Parong Sari, I have no doubt that in Malaysia this spelling is understood, but since we are talking about a dhapur that is originally Javanese, it is clear that the Malay transliteration is incorrect, resulting in a word which has no meaning.

In an earlier post I remarked that I was looking forward to learning much from you, because of your unique perspective of the world of the keris.

I find that already you are making a lasting impression on my evaluation of your knowledge.

Thank for this clarification of your erudition.

If you care to expand your knowledge of the Javanese keris as weapon, perhaps a reading of "War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726"--M.C. Ricklefs might be of value to you.

PenangsangII · 30th May 2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parong sari

No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative..

i'm not saying that javanese or any other indonesian kerises are not good, but most of them aren't made for fighting.. and don't judge a keris by it's composition of steel or the pamor and say that its not fit enough to be a keris because malaysian keris were forged to kill.. just a matter of using them or not.. i'm not offended because i have any interest in this keris but because it's a malay keris and by my observation, this keris is the right type for a duel and should earn some respect even it is not as fancy as javanese keris which is for display..

Has anyone of you forumers use your beloved keris for fighting practices or something?? don't see any hands up which i guess they are only for viewing pleasure only..

p/s: dosen't really matter how i spell parong or parung, tameng or taming, it's the pronunciation that counts my friend..

Mr ParongSari or rather ParungSari,

How on earth did you know that none of us here practise silat that has keris syllabus in it. I suggest that you dig deeper in the older threads right here in Warung Kopi to find out who among the forumers actually use keris in silat

samajadi · 30th May 2008, 03:13 PM

ok guys.. thanks.. can we focus on my malela now..

David · 30th May 2008, 03:53 PM

Mr. Parong Sari has made quite a lot of assumptions since his arrival here Penangsang. He is not unlike the rude house guest who arrives unannounced, knows no one at the party, yet then presumes to make all kinds of comments about all their lives and values.

In fact, i have already informed him that we have a few silat practitioners here (and i believe a couple of teachers as well), yet he choses to ignore this information. This is the true meaning of ignorance, that when one is presented with facts one consciously choses to disregard them.
I, for one, physically work with my keris everyday, it is in fact an important part of my daily spiritual practice. They don't just hang on my wall. But that is unimportant. As i have also already informed Parong, this is a collectors forum, not a silat forum. We do not pass judgement of people here who like to just collect keris and appreciate their beauty though there is, of course, much more than just beauty to all keris, both Malay and Indo. I don't consider Parong a better or worse human being merely because he can see no other purpose for a keris than to cause physical harm to another. It does, however, show a certain amount of ignorance on his part. And saying that Javanese keris are only for display shows just how little you know about them.

"No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative.."

It is also obvious from this passage that you do not have a very clear understanding of these legends or the history of the Indonesian people. I suggest you try a little reading and Mr. Maisey has suggested a very good start for you.

I appreciate that you take pride in your culture and you arts, but you seem to do so with arrogance and ignorance , a very dangerous combination. It is nice that you have come to the defense of this posted Malay keris, but as i look back on this thread i see very little posted about it that is actually negative. The only negative remarks came from the only person on this forum who has actually apprenticed for years in the art of keris making with a known and respected kraton empu, so i find his analysis on the construction of this keris just a little more valuable than yours.

BTW, you still have not supported you assertion that this keris was forged with silver or why you even think that.

kai · 31st May 2008, 12:06 AM

How about the Malay and Indonesian word for village? I assumed that the different transliterations (kampong vs. kampung) were the result of different European nations and their respective languages (or rather their respective utilization of the Roman alphabet).

Even if a given Indonesian word wasn't in use in the Malay language, wouldn't it feel more natural to a Malay speaker to write "parong" rather than "parung"? Just curious - Malay and Indo speakers please educate me...

Regards,
Kai

David · 31st May 2008, 12:11 AM

Kai, i understand your curiosity on this, but i think this thread has digressed far enough from it's original intent already. I suggest that we begin talking about Zartane's keris again or perhaps it is time to lock this thread up and move on.

30th May 2008, 09:19 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Parong Sari, I assume you have addressed your comment on the spelling of "parung" to me, so I shall respond. You are of course correct in that it is pronunciation that is important, however, this romanisation of the original Javanese script is given in Jawa as "parung". In Malaysia it seems that it is usually given as "parong". These two words have a totally different sound, and in the Malay language, as far as I have been able to ascertain, the word "parong" is unknown and has no meaning. In Jawa the word in its original and correct transliteration has a very definite meaning. This confusion would seem to indicate that when the romanisation of the original Javanese script was found necessary in Malay, the result was influenced by the accent of a speaker. Parong Sari, I have no doubt that in Malaysia this spelling is understood, but since we are talking about a dhapur that is originally Javanese, it is clear that the Malay transliteration is incorrect, resulting in a word which has no meaning. In an earlier post I remarked that I was looking forward to learning much from you, because of your unique perspective of the world of the keris. I find that already you are making a lasting impression on my evaluation of your knowledge. Thank for this clarification of your erudition. If you care to expand your knowledge of the Javanese keris as weapon, perhaps a reading of "War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726"--M.C. Ricklefs might be of value to you.

30th May 2008, 03:13 PM	#4
samajadi Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1	ok guys.. thanks.. can we focus on my malela now..

30th May 2008, 03:53 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Mr. Parong Sari has made quite a lot of assumptions since his arrival here Penangsang. He is not unlike the rude house guest who arrives unannounced, knows no one at the party, yet then presumes to make all kinds of comments about all their lives and values. In fact, i have already informed him that we have a few silat practitioners here (and i believe a couple of teachers as well), yet he choses to ignore this information. This is the true meaning of ignorance, that when one is presented with facts one consciously choses to disregard them. I, for one, physically work with my keris everyday, it is in fact an important part of my daily spiritual practice. They don't just hang on my wall. But that is unimportant. As i have also already informed Parong, this is a collectors forum, not a silat forum. We do not pass judgement of people here who like to just collect keris and appreciate their beauty though there is, of course, much more than just beauty to all keris, both Malay and Indo. I don't consider Parong a better or worse human being merely because he can see no other purpose for a keris than to cause physical harm to another. It does, however, show a certain amount of ignorance on his part. And saying that Javanese keris are only for display shows just how little you know about them. "No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative.." It is also obvious from this passage that you do not have a very clear understanding of these legends or the history of the Indonesian people. I suggest you try a little reading and Mr. Maisey has suggested a very good start for you. I appreciate that you take pride in your culture and you arts, but you seem to do so with arrogance and ignorance , a very dangerous combination. It is nice that you have come to the defense of this posted Malay keris, but as i look back on this thread i see very little posted about it that is actually negative. The only negative remarks came from the only person on this forum who has actually apprenticed for years in the art of keris making with a known and respected kraton empu, so i find his analysis on the construction of this keris just a little more valuable than yours. BTW, you still have not supported you assertion that this keris was forged with silver or why you even think that.

31st May 2008, 12:06 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	How about the Malay and Indonesian word for village? I assumed that the different transliterations (kampong vs. kampung) were the result of different European nations and their respective languages (or rather their respective utilization of the Roman alphabet). Even if a given Indonesian word wasn't in use in the Malay language, wouldn't it feel more natural to a Malay speaker to write "parong" rather than "parung"? Just curious - Malay and Indo speakers please educate me... Regards, Kai

31st May 2008, 12:11 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Kai, i understand your curiosity on this, but i think this thread has digressed far enough from it's original intent already. I suggest that we begin talking about Zartane's keris again or perhaps it is time to lock this thread up and move on.