2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

The straight out calling this piece a fake or poor quality is of little concern to me, if it is, it is, that is fine and cannot be changed....but what you say about possibly alienating myself from these people because I heard what I wanted to hear from another, should not put others offside, as humans we all continue to learn and if we think we know it all the learning has stopped.

Gavin, i think you have not quite grasped what i was trying to say. Probably my fault for not being clear enough. It is not the facts of these threads which i personally found alienating. Perhaps i read too much between your lines, the the post which prompted me to write what i did came off to me as "I found some some real experts, they told me all you guys are wrong and i was right....so there!" Followed, of course, by a very large raspberry.
Now, this may not have been you intention, but it is certainly the way it came off to me and i would guess probably some others. Norman (and yourself) make some good points about knowledgable members sometimes being too hard on certain items that get posted and of course if someone knocks a knife you own you want to hear solid facts as to why, especially if you thought it was something greater than what people are making it out to be. The difference i see here is that while some members have knocked your kindjal (an object), you seem to me knocking the the members (actual people). This is what i found to be possibly alienating, not the mere fact that you have found your own experts who disagree with the members here. Most of our membership is pretty good about admitting they were wrong when presented with facts that show they were.
BTW, you seem you want very specific evidence from the forum members as to why they believe your kindjals are not quite kosher. What evidence (other than their say so) did your experts give you that they are indeed authentic antiques?
Keep in mind Gavin that i've got no horse in this race. I know nothing about kindjals though i do like to think i know something about quality. I could clearly see the points of forumites who remarked negatively on your first kindjal. I am on the fence about the second. The silverwork and neillo look quite beautiful to my eye. I don't know enough about the blades to know whether or not the style is period. It's a nice knife regardless of it's age or origins.
What i suggest is that everyone just take a step back and take a deep breathe. I don't think any member here intended to disrespect you with their comments about your kindjals. Their comments were on the knife itself. I also think that they are trying their best to communicate with you just what it is about these knives that don't sit right with them and if you gave it some time more might come out. And they may well be wrong about this last one. I am just afraid that rubbing your expert's opinions in their faces, especially ones that are equally unsubstantiated, is not likely to get you positive responses.

[ALEX]

I also feel the Forum had been swayed to the direction of mixing personal feelings, guesses and comments from others with unsufficient experience in a particular field. Everyone had been professional and courteous, but I believe it'd be better to stick with the basics, i.e. sharing opinions based solely on specific experience and knowledge! At this point many experienced members voiced their solid opinions and reasoning behind them. The best advice was to handle as many pieces as possible, which is the only way to tell the difference. There is no science behind telling an authentic antique kindjal (or painting, sculpture or anything else) from repro. Experience is what counts. Congratulations to those who were able to learn.
It's time to move on.
OUT

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ward

I am sorry Norman that my messages seem kurt. I answer a lot of emails and questions a day. I am not trying to be impolite it is just my nature. I would rather see a collector buy simpler honest old pieces than fancy reproduction or tourist pieces. I see no reason to suger coat a response and give false hope to someone. The piece stands on its own or does not.

Thats alright Ward,
When at work I operate with, short clear direct responses without the sit around and have a chat attitude as sometimes seconds are precious and when wasted the day can have a snowball effect. I will touch on the fancier "reproduction and tourist pieces" shortly. False hope, real hope and items standing on their own only do so with consistant facts across the board, I have filed through so many postings here on kindjals and find no consistancy with points of interest raised and the same when taking these notes on board when viewing with great details Kindjals in very reputable dealer's webpages. I will follow this up soon with further postings.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Norman

Some of our fellow formites are advanced collectors in there respected areas such as in Eastern European,South East Asian,Indo Persian and African weapons so when I post something that I am not sure of I am looking for their honest unbiased opinion. So if I bought something that later turns out to be not what I originally hope for than I take it with a grain of salt and move on. I feel if several individuals with one hundred plus years of combined collecting expertise in a given area tell me something I should listen. Yes I agree sometimes they can be a bit blunt but there is a saying "If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". I generally stay away from Chinese and Eastern European items due to the fact that they have become a cottage industry in some the mother countries and the replicas though traditionally made are becoming harder to differentiate from the old ones.

Regards,

Lew

Very good point Lew, the combined experience here is a great sum of knowledge, what I am trying to sift through here(is for the betterment of all to understand these items), is the consistancy of comments made with conviction by different individuals that contradict other individuals here, the relationship of what is said and how it doesn't colate to images offered up. I am not trying to discredit anyone, I am sure there must be very good reason for these differences, it is just not explained clearly if at all.
I just want to see and hear what these reasons for different standards are, not just have it accepted without an explanation.

The ducks quacking and I don't see no emus...

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Teodor,
I am in absolute agreement that the very act of posting an item is to invite constructive criticism and that if you do not want to hear or acknowledge that your item may or may not be what you had hoped then don't post. On the other hand comments and opinions can be proffered with tact and understanding and need not be in any way derisory or demeaning to get over a point.
Regards,
Norman.


Hi Ward,
Having mentioned no names you are obviously aware that your responses are short and to the point, I wouldn't say curt. First may I say that I am grateful that you have taken the time and effort to respond and give your opinion on some of my pieces, you are obviously knowledgeable and I do appreciate the imparting of said knowledge. I wouldn't expect you to give false hope and to be fair I never suggested anywhere that you or anyone else should tell anybody anything other than your honest opinion. I am probably behind the times with regard to the beginning and ending of replies, my daughter tells me I'm a dinosaur and that this is for letter writing and not the net, I am retired and have time for the niceties and so will stick with them. The most important thing is the common interest we all share the posters and repliers for without them there would be no Forum.
Regards,
Norman.

Nicely said Norman, are you sure you haven't spent time in the diplomatic corp? I too agree there are some very knowledgeable people here and I too wish to hear all that is said good or bad about anything posted, though delivery of anything is always important.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

To fight your corner here, you really have to be sure or know your interest, and do the research. The mysterious "rightness" in one item is completely different in another. All collectors have struggled with this sort of work at one time or another.
The items in question are indeed better than many "right" stuff I have seen that I am sure are not apprentice work due to location and time frame. All adding to the difficulties, just that these do not appear to be truly old.
Auction houses some better than others, are only expert in selling!!!!!!!!! Most often thier knowledge is only based on the price an object made at the last same category of sales whether they knew anything about it or not. They are salespeople only, lets drink there mini bar .

Hi Tim, that sounds like me struggling to get a hold of the elusive standard for sure....I think I need a double of what ever you are pouring....make that a tripple on the rocks...

Originally Posted by David

Norman, i certainly agree that it is important that we all respond to one another in a civil and understanding manner. That said, having followed these 2 kindjal threads, i do not see anywhere that any member was uncivil with Gavin.
As for remarks made about the skill level of the creator of any piece, unless i made it myself, or my father, uncle or grandfather was the craftsman, i see no reason whatsoever to take offense. We should be able to separate ourselves from the things we collect and i should hope that criticism of my knife is not criticism of me.

You are quite right David, there has been no personal attack on me, only on what can be seen in the images, I take no offense persay, I am disappointed as expressed clearly in past posting of the lack of whys and wherefores, that is very disappointing coming from who people here consider experts and the jumping on the band wagon by others with the same experinece again with out so much as a small consistant comparison, I have read many of the Keris forum postings, mostly things are put into perspective clearly and concisely with good factual backup....I still have many question unanswered and will sum them all up shortly in an other reply.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Lew,
Agreed, there is a vast resource of knowledge here and it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to tap that resource at will. As to experts, along with their expertise comes a certain blase approach to lesser specimens of the genre, weapons I mean not people, this is to be understood, I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me. Usually when someone finds out my ex profession out come the holiday photographs or the tired old S.L.R. from the cupboard but I have to say I have never been unnecessarily blunt or short but neither have I given them false hope that "Yes you could be the next, insert name of famous photographer of your choice, honest you really could!" Everyone of you are correct in that honesty and candour should never be sacrificed but neither should sensitivity and understanding.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Yes, I think you have to be particularly sharp, pardon the pun, to enter the Chinese antique market.

Originally Posted by David

That's funny Norm, i've been a pro shooter for more than 30 years now and have always considered anything larger than 2 1/4 as those unnecessarily large format cameras.

You guys will have plenty to talk about when that minibar is opened, maybe you can click of a few too for the forum gathering postings.....

Originally Posted by ward

getting back to the original post. Either you see the differece between this piece in workmanship style and form and a 19th century piece or you do not. If you are happy with the piece fine otherwise move on. I personally feel the piece was made somewhere between 1950-1990.

Hi Ward, please come in and share with me your reasons why, the only to learn for myself and others. Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Tim,
I have seen many things described incorrectly at auction houses and agreed just because they say it is so does not make it necessarily so, see the disclaimer. As to the "rightness" factor I believe this can only be determined absolutely, if there is any doubt, by handling the object in question indeed the only times I have bought a pup, several in fact, was over the net with only photographs to guide me. Kindjals are not my area of interest or knowledge, although I would not pass up the opportunity to acquire a nice one given the chance, therefore I am not defending Gav's notions of the "rightness" of his acquisitions I was only concerned that some responses were a bit insensitive.
We are all different and perhaps what one person finds insensitive others do not, each to their own I guess is the only answer.
Regards,
Norman.

I too have, any many here have found these misrepresented items, sometimes refered to as sleepers. Handling an object along with knowledge is paramount I feel also Norman, as Scratch here has said about many things in my collection both weapons and non weapons, the images provided do not do them justice...mybe a few photgraphy tips can bring the real essence of this piece to light?

Originally Posted by ALEX

I also feel the Forum had been swayed to the direction of mixing personal feelings, guesses and comments from others with unsufficient experience in a particular field. Everyone had been professional and courteous, but I believe it'd be better to stick with the basics, i.e. sharing opinions based solely on specific experience and knowledge! At this point many experienced members voiced their solid opinions and reasoning behind them. The best advice was to handle as many pieces as possible, which is the only way to tell the difference. There is no science behind telling an authentic antique kindjal (or painting, sculpture or anything else) from repro. Experience is what counts. Congratulations to those who were able to learn.
It's time to move on.
OUT

A shame you are opting out of this Alex, you have provided the most substantiated comments in my eyes and good points of reference to follow up on. I will be offering up more questions(and further images of this and others) that have arisen from these specific and knowlegdable comments for further discussion shortly.

Thank you everyone who has taken an interest thus far and thank you for all comments good or bad, it is the only way forward.

regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Gavin, i think you have not quite grasped what i was trying to say. Probably my fault for not being clear enough. It is not the facts of these threads which i personally found alienating. Perhaps i read too much between your lines, the the post which prompted me to write what i did came off to me as "I found some some real experts, they told me all you guys are wrong and i was right....so there!" Followed, of course, by a very large raspberry.
Now, this may not have been you intention, but it is certainly the way it came off to me and i would guess probably some others. Norman (and yourself) make some good points about knowledgable members sometimes being too hard on certain items that get posted and of course if someone knocks a knife you own you want to hear solid facts as to why, especially if you thought it was something greater than what people are making it out to be. The difference i see here is that while some members have knocked your kindjal (an object), you seem to me knocking the the members (actual people). This is what i found to be possibly alienating, not the mere fact that you have found your own experts who disagree with the members here. Most of our membership is pretty good about admitting they were wrong when presented with facts that show they were.
BTW, you seem you want very specific evidence from the forum members as to why they believe your kindjals are not quite kosher. What evidence (other than their say so) did your experts give you that they are indeed authentic antiques?
Keep in mind Gavin that i've got no horse in this race. I know nothing about kindjals though i do like to think i know something about quality. I could clearly see the points of forumites who remarked negatively on your first kindjal. I am on the fence about the second. The silverwork and neillo look quite beautiful to my eye. I don't know enough about the blades to know whether or not the style is period. It's a nice knife regardless of it's age or origins.
What i suggest is that everyone just take a step back and take a deep breathe. I don't think any member here intended to disrespect you with their comments about your kindjals. Their comments were on the knife itself. I also think that they are trying their best to communicate with you just what it is about these knives that don't sit right with them and if you gave it some time more might come out. And they may well be wrong about this last one. I am just afraid that rubbing your expert's opinions in their faces, especially ones that are equally unsubstantiated, is not likely to get you positive responses.

Hi David, thanks again for coming in.

Maybe a little was lost in both our translations. No one at this stage has said anyone is wrong, I am however tenacious in understanding the differing points of comparisons and comments and consistancy of statements and will vigorously follow these up when time does permit as I plainly cannot understand these somewhat obvious points, more to follow in up coming postings with these and other unanswered questions, maybe my questions are beyond the realm of probable questioning without the item in their hands???
With regards to what other dealers and collectors/enthusiasts have said about this piece, I will add too that this piece was shown around a few more dealers on Saturday at the Brisbane arms and Militaria fair with good reception but no further concrete evidence other than what is below. About half a dozen people including the Jeweller and previous enthusiast have passed comment with some interesting points, I also rang the previous owner today an asked if he had any more information in his weapons register.
Some of the points that have been mentioned are First and formost the superb quality workmanship has been mentioned and that it is distinctly Georgian and is a very lovely piece without a doubt made by a master craftsman for someone of wealth or importance, it too was offered up that the rubbed inscription panel will most likely hold the key to understanding it's history and who it was for. It was also mentioned that the blade has a good deal of age to it and does show despite what some fool at some stage has done with it and that is run the blade over a belt sander at some stage of it's life, "they should have been drawn and quartered" was the remark of one dealer about what it has suffered. I have had good points bought to my attention on the best way to fix it and out of the cupboard comes my ole faithful Lanskey honing stones or varying degrees and the long task of oiling and rubbing with the stones starts. It has also been advised that the acorn final and the acorn patterns that I hadn't previously noticed in the neillo design and in the chiseling may also real more about the time period if research can be done on these points. Also said that it carries a good deal of honest wear to the reverse side and has beeen well cared for and other than the state of the blade, well respected.
It too has been stated in relation to other Kindjals that have been through the hands of these dealers, that an unsightly seam is often seen in the manufacture of the scabbard, someone has gone to great trouble to join this scabbard in an very unobvious spot and short of pulling the old timber from the scabbard it remains undetectable to the naked eye. When probed about hallmarks it was said that it is not uncommon at all to find Silver unhallmarked. The design of the rivet heads was noted too as it gives a very positive feel about where the hilt is in the hand in all range of movements. the shape too may reveal more about it's origins.
That's about all I can recall for tonight David, a long day is now at an end for me. Lots more food for thought has been offered up by others, I'll spend a bit of time digesting it all and write again soon.

regards

Gav