new find (seem like betok)

David · 14th May 2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A Tuban buntut urang is not quite nguceng mati, but it sure isn't nyebit rontal---its a straight,heavy, pretty ugly gonjo that looks like the tail has been cut off, which results in it looking like a shortened nguceng mati---that is, if it was longer, it would be.

Alan, i realize that you are communicating to Ferry in terms that you think he will best understand, but i, for one, am not too proud to admit that i don't really understand these terms and i suspect that there may be others who also don't. Can these characteristics be described in English?

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2008, 11:45 PM

Yep, it can be done, but it really cannot be done with any facility in keris discussion, especially with somebody who is Javanese.Its really just a part of basic keris vocab; you could probably find it Ensiklopedi or one of the other standard references. I'll give meanings, rather than translations, which could result in even more confusion. I'll include the other foriegn words too just in case any new comers might be wondering what we're waffling on about. I'm always in favour of using English words rather than foriegn words, when English words are available, but sometimes they are not, so we just need to learn the correct technical terms.

nguceng mati--- refers to a gonjo shape, from the top looking down onto it, that has a pointed buntut urang
nyebit rontal---refers to the gonjo shape that curves in between the pesi and the buntut urang, and the buntut urang flares out a bit.
tuban--- a tangguh, or classification
sirah cecak --- the end of the gonjo above the gandik
buntut urang --- the other end of the gonjo
pawakan--- overall visual impression, but in this instance it refers to a part of the pawakan, which is the cross section
pijetan--- blumbangan--- depression at blade base
gandik--- raised roundish lump in front of blumbangan
segaluh--- a tangguh , or classification

"nguceng mati"; an "uceng" is a little fish, add the "ng" and it indicates "like", "mati" is "dead", so "like a little dead fish" which describes perfectly the shape of this type of gonjo.

"nyebit rontal" is ny (s)ebit ron tal; sebit is a variation of sebet, nyebet means "torn off" , ron is krama for godhong which means "leaf" , tal is the lontar palm which is what used to be used for writing leaves. So "nyebit rontal" means "a piece of lontar palm leaf". This leaf has a slight curl, and this curl approximates the curve between the part of the gonjo with the pesi hole through it, and the buntut urang.

ferrylaki · 15th May 2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Alan, i realize that you are communicating to Ferry in terms that you think he will best understand, but i, for one, am not too proud to admit that i don't really understand these terms and i suspect that there may be others who also don't. Can these characteristics be described in English?

David, I really sorry if my writings tend to make more confuseness.
I always try to use the easy vocabulary in keris discussion.
I realize that if only I could provide better pictures for every discussion it would be easier for us to understand.
In this case I believe Alan is the best person to describe those terms in keris vocabulary. as we all know, in javanese vocabulary there are inconsistency in the writing and spelling matter.
even for a javanese like my self still need the keris ensiclopedia to ensure that I do not make a missunderstand.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

David · 15th May 2008, 02:22 PM

Thanks Alan for taking the time to describe these terms. It was really just the first 2 referring to gonjo shapes that were unfamiliar to me, but it doesn't hurt to define the others as well.

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2008, 11:10 PM

Yeah, I knew you'd know all the others David, but I think we get a fair few visitors who would not know the meanings.

Actually, you'll find a fair sort of a glossary here:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisglossary.html

15th May 2008, 11:10 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yeah, I knew you'd know all the others David, but I think we get a fair few visitors who would not know the meanings. Actually, you'll find a fair sort of a glossary here:- http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisglossary.html Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 15th May 2008 at 11:27 PM.

14th May 2008, 11:45 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yep, it can be done, but it really cannot be done with any facility in keris discussion, especially with somebody who is Javanese.Its really just a part of basic keris vocab; you could probably find it Ensiklopedi or one of the other standard references. I'll give meanings, rather than translations, which could result in even more confusion. I'll include the other foriegn words too just in case any new comers might be wondering what we're waffling on about. I'm always in favour of using English words rather than foriegn words, when English words are available, but sometimes they are not, so we just need to learn the correct technical terms. nguceng mati--- refers to a gonjo shape, from the top looking down onto it, that has a pointed buntut urang nyebit rontal---refers to the gonjo shape that curves in between the pesi and the buntut urang, and the buntut urang flares out a bit. tuban--- a tangguh, or classification sirah cecak --- the end of the gonjo above the gandik buntut urang --- the other end of the gonjo pawakan--- overall visual impression, but in this instance it refers to a part of the pawakan, which is the cross section pijetan--- blumbangan--- depression at blade base gandik--- raised roundish lump in front of blumbangan segaluh--- a tangguh , or classification "nguceng mati"; an "uceng" is a little fish, add the "ng" and it indicates "like", "mati" is "dead", so "like a little dead fish" which describes perfectly the shape of this type of gonjo. "nyebit rontal" is ny (s)ebit ron tal; sebit is a variation of sebet, nyebet means "torn off" , ron is krama for godhong which means "leaf" , tal is the lontar palm which is what used to be used for writing leaves. So "nyebit rontal" means "a piece of lontar palm leaf". This leaf has a slight curl, and this curl approximates the curve between the part of the gonjo with the pesi hole through it, and the buntut urang.

15th May 2008, 02:22 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Alan for taking the time to describe these terms. It was really just the first 2 referring to gonjo shapes that were unfamiliar to me, but it doesn't hurt to define the others as well.