Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 02:31 PM

Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance.

I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture.

So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

Rick · 12th May 2008, 03:14 PM

HI Bill, happy Monday .

Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 04:09 PM

This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies.

It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted?

I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer.

Lew · 12th May 2008, 05:11 PM

Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades.

Lew

Dajak · 12th May 2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Bill

By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched )

it is dated
place collected
and who did collected

Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall .

With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find .

I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale .

Ben

Battara · 12th May 2008, 08:30 PM

Going back to an earlier question, is this Moro or Sumatran, I noticed that that repousse looks Indonesian but the okir looks Sulu Moro......

VVV · 12th May 2008, 09:47 PM

It's interesting that Newsteel and PenangsangII also think this combo is Peninsular Malay.
I hope some of the other Malay keris collectors also share their opinion on this issue.
Below is a hilt of a Peninsular Malay Keris Sundang.
I have also enclosed the sorsoran area of a Peninsular Malay Keris Panjang.
As you can see it doesn't have the "Sumatra C" on the sorsoran. Neither does Bill's blade.
VOC were also active in Peninsular Malaysia. They for instance captured Malacca in 1641,
in alliance with the sultans of Aceh and Johore, after a long campaign.

Michael

12th May 2008, 04:09 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies. It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted? I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer. Attached Images

12th May 2008, 05:11 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades. Lew Attached Images

12th May 2008, 06:01 PM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched ) it is dated place collected and who did collected Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall . With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find . I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale . Ben Attached Images

12th May 2008, 09:47 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It's interesting that Newsteel and PenangsangII also think this combo is Peninsular Malay. I hope some of the other Malay keris collectors also share their opinion on this issue. Below is a hilt of a Peninsular Malay Keris Sundang. I have also enclosed the sorsoran area of a Peninsular Malay Keris Panjang. As you can see it doesn't have the "Sumatra C" on the sorsoran. Neither does Bill's blade. VOC were also active in Peninsular Malaysia. They for instance captured Malacca in 1641, in alliance with the sultans of Aceh and Johore, after a long campaign. Michael Attached Images

12th May 2008, 02:31 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance. I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture. So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

12th May 2008, 03:14 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	HI Bill, happy Monday . Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

12th May 2008, 08:30 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Going back to an earlier question, is this Moro or Sumatran, I noticed that that repousse looks Indonesian but the okir looks Sulu Moro......