Exceptional Shashka

Rick · 25th March 2005, 09:27 PM

Pictures have been saved Ariel .

spiral · 25th March 2005, 10:15 PM

I wonder if the fellow who bid $101 dollars kept track of the auction?

Rick · 25th March 2005, 10:34 PM

I wonder if the fellow who sold it had any idea of the price it would fetch .

Rivkin · 26th March 2005, 02:04 AM

Thank you very much for all this info on this shashka !

am I right in thinking that it's your opinion that the hilt is a circassian from Turkey work, post-exile ?

Yannis · 26th March 2005, 09:17 AM

Ariel,

You have made a lot of remarkable comments on this shashka. Allow me to say my opinions.

1. This blade is definitely remounted. From an elaborate shamshir (possibly) to a plain shashka.

2. Orthodox iconography was not so static as it is commonly belief. Good artists used a lot of expressions and techniques. Virgin Mary’s hair is uncovered. It is not forbidden, it is most unusual.

3. There is a certain western influence in the icons, but only an art historian can tell and I am not.

4. After the fall of Constantinople (1453) some Greek aristocrats and scholars moved to Italy where they remained orthodox but they exchange styles of art with the Catholics.

5. Until Greek revolution (1821), the high rank Greek officials of the Sultan had the right to carry swords with Christian symbols. After that it was forbidden. This blade was not made anywhere in Ottoman empire after 1821, and if you carried it you were a rebel.

6. They were a lot of Greek officers in Tsars army. Also there are Greeks living in Caucasus from ancient times till today.

7. The script is definitely Greek. Not only the lettering but the words. We have a special Greek word for Madonna “Panagia” meaning “All saint” that I think only Greeks use it.

8. The script is written with capital Byzantine letters but the words and the grammar is not Byzantine, it is later. This script is in use till today for church reasons.

9. It says: “Panagia mother of God help your slave (servant) year ….”. The big question for me is this year. I can’t decipher it and I have tried anything I could.

10. There are two ways to read the letters after “year” and some more ways to read the numerals. It is very complicated to explain here, but they don’t lead me anywhere. If it was mine I would ask a byzantinologist help.

11. My conclusion is that the blade made between 1600 and 1800 for a rich Greek man who could afford eastern Damascus and exceptional iconography. Later, most possible after Greek revolution, the blade arrived in Caucasus. The new owner (maybe a child of the same family) remounted the blade to local style. Why he did that? Maybe the original hilt and the scabbard were destroyed, or he didn’t want to show off. Who knows? After that the story goes like other Caucasian weapons.

12. I wrote “a child of the same family” for two reasons. First “nationalistic” speaking, the Greeks don’t give their ancestors weapons except they are forced to. Second, rich Greek families in Ottoman era because of the instability of their status used to spread their belongings in more countries. It was not uncommon the same family to have business in Italy, Turkey and Russia the same time.

Bill M · 26th March 2005, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Pictures have been saved Ariel .

Ummh Rick, could you post the pictures?

It sure looked like the guy did not know waht he had. Apparently bidding started at around a hundred dollars. Bet he is happpy!

Rick · 26th March 2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Ummh Rick, could you post the pictures?

It sure looked like the guy did not know waht he had. Apparently bidding started at around a hundred dollars. Bet he is happpy!

Hi Bill , since Artzi has promised us a report on this newest acquisition I think I will leave it up to him to post the relevant pictures .

tom hyle · 26th March 2005, 04:42 PM

Yeah he is!
Yannis, would it be possible a Greek immigrant was in Russian service and had it remounted for some sort of Russian military requirements? A lot of armies in the early modern era would regulate hilt style, scabbard covering, and things like that, but people still provided or could provide their own blades and their own work. I haven't seen the pics, actually (the link doesn't work right for me for some reason), and I take it it's real fancy, but if he were an officer/prince?...

spiral · 26th March 2005, 04:52 PM

Bill, the sellers bidding price started at $1.

I look forward to the full your report Artzi, it should be enlightening for me..

lovely piece!

Spiral

ariel · 26th March 2005, 09:57 PM

Yannis and Tom,
Every potential scenario we all advanced here is just an exercise in fantasy: nobody knows how this incredible and very old blade got married the Circassian hilt.
I am glad you all agree that it was a "second marriage".
I am still watching the pics and awe-ing......

eftihis · 22nd May 2005, 09:40 AM

Just in case the sword has been received and Artzi was too busy for the report, i am writting here to remind that matter.
I still havent seen yet the pictures!!!

25th March 2005, 09:27 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Pictures have been saved Ariel .

25th March 2005, 10:15 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I wonder if the fellow who bid $101 dollars kept track of the auction?

25th March 2005, 10:34 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	I wonder if the fellow who sold it had any idea of the price it would fetch .

26th March 2005, 02:04 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much for all this info on this shashka ! am I right in thinking that it's your opinion that the hilt is a circassian from Turkey work, post-exile ?

26th March 2005, 09:17 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Ariel, You have made a lot of remarkable comments on this shashka. Allow me to say my opinions. 1. This blade is definitely remounted. From an elaborate shamshir (possibly) to a plain shashka. 2. Orthodox iconography was not so static as it is commonly belief. Good artists used a lot of expressions and techniques. Virgin Mary’s hair is uncovered. It is not forbidden, it is most unusual. 3. There is a certain western influence in the icons, but only an art historian can tell and I am not. 4. After the fall of Constantinople (1453) some Greek aristocrats and scholars moved to Italy where they remained orthodox but they exchange styles of art with the Catholics. 5. Until Greek revolution (1821), the high rank Greek officials of the Sultan had the right to carry swords with Christian symbols. After that it was forbidden. This blade was not made anywhere in Ottoman empire after 1821, and if you carried it you were a rebel. 6. They were a lot of Greek officers in Tsars army. Also there are Greeks living in Caucasus from ancient times till today. 7. The script is definitely Greek. Not only the lettering but the words. We have a special Greek word for Madonna “Panagia” meaning “All saint” that I think only Greeks use it. 8. The script is written with capital Byzantine letters but the words and the grammar is not Byzantine, it is later. This script is in use till today for church reasons. 9. It says: “Panagia mother of God help your slave (servant) year ….”. The big question for me is this year. I can’t decipher it and I have tried anything I could. 10. There are two ways to read the letters after “year” and some more ways to read the numerals. It is very complicated to explain here, but they don’t lead me anywhere. If it was mine I would ask a byzantinologist help. 11. My conclusion is that the blade made between 1600 and 1800 for a rich Greek man who could afford eastern Damascus and exceptional iconography. Later, most possible after Greek revolution, the blade arrived in Caucasus. The new owner (maybe a child of the same family) remounted the blade to local style. Why he did that? Maybe the original hilt and the scabbard were destroyed, or he didn’t want to show off. Who knows? After that the story goes like other Caucasian weapons. 12. I wrote “a child of the same family” for two reasons. First “nationalistic” speaking, the Greeks don’t give their ancestors weapons except they are forced to. Second, rich Greek families in Ottoman era because of the instability of their status used to spread their belongings in more countries. It was not uncommon the same family to have business in Italy, Turkey and Russia the same time.

26th March 2005, 04:42 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah he is! Yannis, would it be possible a Greek immigrant was in Russian service and had it remounted for some sort of Russian military requirements? A lot of armies in the early modern era would regulate hilt style, scabbard covering, and things like that, but people still provided or could provide their own blades and their own work. I haven't seen the pics, actually (the link doesn't work right for me for some reason), and I take it it's real fancy, but if he were an officer/prince?...

26th March 2005, 04:52 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Bill, the sellers bidding price started at $1. I look forward to the full your report Artzi, it should be enlightening for me.. lovely piece! Spiral

26th March 2005, 09:57 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yannis and Tom, Every potential scenario we all advanced here is just an exercise in fantasy: nobody knows how this incredible and very old blade got married the Circassian hilt. I am glad you all agree that it was a "second marriage". I am still watching the pics and awe-ing......

22nd May 2005, 09:40 AM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Just in case the sword has been received and Artzi was too busy for the report, i am writting here to remind that matter. I still havent seen yet the pictures!!!