YET ANOTHER DHA!!

kahnjar1 · 6th May 2008, 09:06 AM

Have just won this one off Ebay. Any thoughts as to origins? Was listed as Thai Executioners Sword---don't think so!!..........but could be wrong.

Pics are from listing.
Regards Stuart

Mark · 6th May 2008, 06:48 PM

Odd pommel, but I would say Shan States (Burma) or northern Thailand. I've never seen one quite like it. I suppose that it could be an executioner's sword, though I do not think that any particular features make one such, just how it was actually used. In other words, while dha/daab were certainly used by executioners, as far as I know there is no such thing as an "executioner" style dha, as you have with keris for instance. They just used any ol' dha they had.

kahnjar1 · 7th May 2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Odd pommel, but I would say Shan States (Burma) or northern Thailand. I've never seen one quite like it. I suppose that it could be an executioner's sword, though I do not think that any particular features make one such, just how it was actually used. In other words, while dha/daab were certainly used by executioners, as far as I know there is no such thing as an "executioner" style dha, as you have with keris for instance. They just used any ol' dha they had.

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments. I have another (which I think you have seen before on this Forum) which has a very similar pommel. This one is a dagger/knife. I seem to remember you identified this one as of Shan origin also.
Regards Stuart

PUFF · 7th May 2008, 12:03 PM

I happen to have an example of executioner 's sword.
It 's the 3rd one from top. The sword was used by an executioner 100-150 years ago in central Thailand. It was kept by his family and then transfer to a collector.
By handling, it 's a little heavier than ordinary type. It could be because of that its POB 's a bit toward the tip. My feeling 's the sword 's definitely made for hacking job.

kahnjar1 · 8th May 2008, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

I happen to have an example of executioner 's sword.
It 's the 3rd one from top. The sword was used by an executioner 100-150 years ago in central Thailand. It was kept by his family and then transfer to a collector.
By handling, it 's a little heavier than ordinary type. It could be because of that its POB 's a bit toward the tip. My feeling 's the sword 's definitely made for hacking job.

Thanks Puff,
Unfortunately I have not receuived the item yet so can't comment on the balance. Blade shape appears similar to your executioners dha. I will comment further when it arrives.R
Regards Stuart

Mark · 8th May 2008, 06:30 PM

Those two make a nice pair, Stuart. The pommel and decoration have a Lanna/Laotian flavor to them - smaller pommel, chased/repouseed metalwork, somewhat bolder patterns. Perhaps they are from further east than what I typically refer to as "Shan" territory. If so, they make a nice stylistic transition from the western Tai (Shan) styles to the more eastern Tai Yuan styles. Perhaps PUFF can offer more insight on this.

kahnjar1 · 8th May 2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Those two make a nice pair, Stuart. The pommel and decoration have a Lanna/Laotian flavor to them - smaller pommel, chased/repouseed metalwork, somewhat bolder patterns. Perhaps they are from further east than what I typically refer to as "Shan" territory. If so, they make a nice stylistic transition from the western Tai (Shan) styles to the more eastern Tai Yuan styles. Perhaps PUFF can offer more insight on this.

Hi Mark, Thanks for your comments. There were a couple of pics which I did not originally attach as they appeared "out of character" with the rest of the sword. The quality of this work appears to me to be of far less quality to the rest. Will have to wait until it arrives to see what the rest is like. Attached here now for comment.
Regards Stuart

Mark · 9th May 2008, 04:03 PM

Interesting. The one of the right is, I think, a European in a tri-corner hat, frock coat & boots.

Are these panels on the scabbard or elsewere, then? Maybe a section was replaced.

kahnjar1 · 9th May 2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Interesting. The one of the right is, I think, a European in a tri-corner hat, frock coat & boots.

Are these panels on the scabbard or elsewere, then? Maybe a section was replaced.

Hi Mark, I assume they are on the scabbard, but as I have not received the Dha I don't know if the rest of the sections are like this. Certainly the part by the drag is typical SEA, but these to me look european and of below average quality for the rest of the item. Will know more when it gets here and I will post further pics then.
Regards Stuart

kahnjar1 · 23rd May 2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Interesting. The one of the right is, I think, a European in a tri-corner hat, frock coat & boots.

Are these panels on the scabbard or elsewere, then? Maybe a section was replaced.

Further to previous discussion, the Dha has now arrived and I can provide a little more info.
Firstly the balance of the blade appears no different from other Dha I have--the weight is approx central. The 17 7/8" blade is very sharp but is only 1/4" thick at the hilt. The handle is 11 3/4" long so probably designed for 2 handed use. Metal appears to be copper overall, but it has been silvered, and a small amount still remains at the scabbard drag. The decorative panels cover all the scabbard except for a plain 4 1/2" section which shows clear marks of having had a baldric at some stage. The handle also is totally covered with decorative panels.
The quality of this piece appears to me to be well above average, and definately shows some age. I would be interested to hear what others think.
Re the figures shown in the panels---I have taken the liberty to copy a couple of pics from Mark's Dha Research Archive (Hope that's OK Mark!). Are those "hats" familiar!!??
Regards Stuart

JeffS · 23rd May 2008, 08:27 AM

What a beauty. What animal do you suppose that is on the panels? It looks to be a squirrel. I am curious as to the significance.

kahnjar1 · 23rd May 2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizos

What a beauty. What animal do you suppose that is on the panels? It looks to be a squirrel. I am curious as to the significance.

There is also what looks like a wolf (dog?) on one of the panels. I do know that there are squirrels in S.E.A as I have seen them wild in Singapore. As to significance I can't help. This is the only Dha I have seen with animals as decoration. Plenty with scrolls etc.
Help please Mark, and anyone else with knowledge of this type of decoration!!!
Regards Stuart

Mark · 30th May 2008, 07:14 PM

Thanks for the extra pictures Stuart. What I saw as a tricorner hat could well be a turban. It also makes more sense, and makes me wonder if this is a Kachin's dha. The Shan and Kachin live very inter-woven lives, even to the point of changing "race" depending on where they live. The style may be Shan, but the decoration Kachin, if that makes any sense.

The panels with people look to be illustrating aspects of every-day life. I see a house and a stamp mill in the second set of panels, and a porter and (maybe) a spear-fisher in the fourth set. Or maybe he is stirring something with a paddle? The presence of an axe in a couple of the panels strikes me as odd, though, because I would expect to see a dha mauk being used instead. I have no idea what the guy in the first set of panels is doing, holding what looks like a musical instrument or maybe a dha with the handle near his mouth. He seems to be blowing into or on it, or about to, but I don't see finger holds like on a flute. The basket on stilts behind him is sort of intriguing as well. I don't think he is blowing a bellows into a forge, because traditionally vertical pump bellows are used.

The squirrels and dogs look like squirrels and dogs to me, too.

tribalarms · 30th May 2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I have no idea what the guy in the first set of panels is doing, holding what looks like a musical instrument or maybe a dha with the handle near his mouth. He seems to be blowing into or on it, or about to, but I don't see finger holds like on a flute. The basket on stilts behind him is sort of intriguing as well. I don't think he is blowing a bellows into a forge, because traditionally vertical pump bellows are used.

He is smoking a bamboo pipe:

kahnjar1 · 30th May 2008, 09:26 PM

Thanks for the added comments Mark. It seems that the more Dha that appear in collector hands, the more questions are raised!! Re the "western" items on the panels of this one, such as the axe....it could well be that this has been copied from the "colonials" who inhabited the area at the time??
Regards Stuart
P.S. I have another interesting Dha on the way and will post this for comment when it arrives.

Mark · 31st May 2008, 07:42 PM

Aha, that's it! Do you know which tribal group these folks are? I have seen cigars, but not pipes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tribalarms

He is smoking a bamboo pipe:

tribalarms · 31st May 2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Aha, that's it! Do you know which tribal group these folks are? I have seen cigars, but not pipes.

The two pictures were nicked from the net and not mine, so I can't be sure, but they appear all over the region (Burma, Thailand and Laos). I've seen it myself among people like the Hmong, Yao and various hilltribes.

PUFF · 14th June 2008, 09:27 AM

The woman with pipe 's Yao, one of a hill tribe in northern Thailand.
The following photo shows their traditional dress.

And this 's traditional dress of another tribe (from the same area), Akha.

6th May 2008, 09:06 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	YET ANOTHER DHA!! Have just won this one off Ebay. Any thoughts as to origins? Was listed as Thai Executioners Sword---don't think so!!..........but could be wrong. Pics are from listing. Regards Stuart Attached Images

30th May 2008, 09:26 PM	#15
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	THANKS AGAIN MARK Thanks for the added comments Mark. It seems that the more Dha that appear in collector hands, the more questions are raised!! Re the "western" items on the panels of this one, such as the axe....it could well be that this has been copied from the "colonials" who inhabited the area at the time?? Regards Stuart P.S. I have another interesting Dha on the way and will post this for comment when it arrives.

6th May 2008, 06:48 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Odd pommel, but I would say Shan States (Burma) or northern Thailand. I've never seen one quite like it. I suppose that it could be an executioner's sword, though I do not think that any particular features make one such, just how it was actually used. In other words, while dha/daab were certainly used by executioners, as far as I know there is no such thing as an "executioner" style dha, as you have with keris for instance. They just used any ol' dha they had.

7th May 2008, 12:03 PM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I happen to have an example of executioner 's sword. It 's the 3rd one from top. The sword was used by an executioner 100-150 years ago in central Thailand. It was kept by his family and then transfer to a collector. By handling, it 's a little heavier than ordinary type. It could be because of that its POB 's a bit toward the tip. My feeling 's the sword 's definitely made for hacking job.

8th May 2008, 06:30 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Those two make a nice pair, Stuart. The pommel and decoration have a Lanna/Laotian flavor to them - smaller pommel, chased/repouseed metalwork, somewhat bolder patterns. Perhaps they are from further east than what I typically refer to as "Shan" territory. If so, they make a nice stylistic transition from the western Tai (Shan) styles to the more eastern Tai Yuan styles. Perhaps PUFF can offer more insight on this.

9th May 2008, 04:03 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Interesting. The one of the right is, I think, a European in a tri-corner hat, frock coat & boots. Are these panels on the scabbard or elsewere, then? Maybe a section was replaced.

23rd May 2008, 08:27 AM	#11
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 342	What a beauty. What animal do you suppose that is on the panels? It looks to be a squirrel. I am curious as to the significance.

30th May 2008, 07:14 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks for the extra pictures Stuart. What I saw as a tricorner hat could well be a turban. It also makes more sense, and makes me wonder if this is a Kachin's dha. The Shan and Kachin live very inter-woven lives, even to the point of changing "race" depending on where they live. The style may be Shan, but the decoration Kachin, if that makes any sense. The panels with people look to be illustrating aspects of every-day life. I see a house and a stamp mill in the second set of panels, and a porter and (maybe) a spear-fisher in the fourth set. Or maybe he is stirring something with a paddle? The presence of an axe in a couple of the panels strikes me as odd, though, because I would expect to see a dha mauk being used instead. I have no idea what the guy in the first set of panels is doing, holding what looks like a musical instrument or maybe a dha with the handle near his mouth. He seems to be blowing into or on it, or about to, but I don't see finger holds like on a flute. The basket on stilts behind him is sort of intriguing as well. I don't think he is blowing a bellows into a forge, because traditionally vertical pump bellows are used. The squirrels and dogs look like squirrels and dogs to me, too.

14th June 2008, 09:27 AM	#18
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The woman with pipe 's Yao, one of a hill tribe in northern Thailand. The following photo shows their traditional dress. And this 's traditional dress of another tribe (from the same area), Akha.